THE GUI SHOULD BE BETTER

27 minutes ago, centersolace said:

And honestly I'm seriously considering building a linux machine.

I didn't even install Linux on my laptop.  I Just download Rufus and loaded the Porteus iso  into it. Created a formatted USB drive with that and then booted directly from it. Super easy if you just want to test things out. I'll probably install a distro later but that's not even necessary with many of them.

20 hours ago, Isaiah said:

I didn't even install Linux on my laptop.  I Just download Rufus and loaded the Porteus iso  into it. Created a formatted USB drive with that and then booted directly from it. Super easy if you just want to test things out. I'll probably install a distro later but that's not even necessary with many of them.

Eh, I kinda want to divorce myself from microsoft and apple as much as my profession allows.

Me too. Just wanted to point out how easy it is to test Linux. I hope to make Linux my main OS eventually. Software compatibility is the only thing preventing me from quitting Windows completely. But the good news is that the Unity editor is now officially supported on Linux. So it's now possible to use Linux for most of my work!

On 9/15/2020 at 10:02 PM, centersolace said:

The problem with rainmeter is that it's an application, which means dedicating a lot more processing power than a shell replacement. I do like stuff like rainmeter and wallpaper engine, but they're not practical if you don't have a beefy rig already. 

I didn't know you could replace the windows shell. After looking up I noticed Cairo which has cool stuff and a discontinued Kde shell. Either of those might make win10 more tolerable. Though , that being said Cairo and definitely that Kde shell (if it works and you can find it) will also hog resources.

23 hours ago, xawesomecorex said:

Cairo and definitely that Kde shell will also hog resources.

Sure, but how much vs Explorer (default shell) is the question.  Blackbox 4 Windows is supposed to be extremely light and seems to function much like LiteStep.

 

 

This is a screenshot of the most recent Blackbox for Windows flavor/build called xoblite, which you can find over here.

30 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

just plain black boxes is so lazy to me, like we have trillions of colors and that's the best we can do, as far as an user interface goes? i mean i get elegance but that just looks lazy, anybody could make that in paint in 30 seconds

And that's probably exactly why this is the developer's screenshot.  They probably just threw together a basic theme here as a starting point. It is by no means "the best we can do", just one example. Black box is very customizable and this build even comes with a xDesignerGUI plugin by default. So you can make it look however you like.

 

boxshots.org has a gallery of many Black Box styles to show you whats possible. Maybe this is more your style:

 

I think this one is interesting (not that I think it's the best or would even use it).

 

Anyway the point of all these screenshot is not to say these are the "best" GUIs. That is mostly subjective and therefore impossible to say. It's just to show that you can fully customize the shell using black box. 

 

2 hours ago, Isaiah said:

Sure, but how much vs Explorer (default shell) is the question.  Blackbox 4 Windows is supposed to be extremely light and seems to function much like LiteStep.

 

 

This is a screenshot of the most recent Blackbox for Windows flavor/build called xoblite, which you can find over here.

You have a point. I'm using Manjaro Xfce, so compared to that Kde is pretty resource heavy. Compared to explorer though it might actually be lighter. I forgot how sluggish Windows can be.

On 9/24/2020 at 4:51 PM, xawesomecorex said:

I didn't know you could replace the windows shell. After looking up I noticed Cairo which has cool stuff and a discontinued Kde shell. Either of those might make win10 more tolerable. Though , that being said Cairo and definitely that Kde shell (if it works and you can find it) will also hog resources.

 

You can. Windows is very finicky about that sort of thing but you can.

On 9/25/2020 at 4:15 PM, RaTcHeT302 said:

i really am not a fan of transparency, it's not readable at all and the contrast is just plain terrible and just plain black boxes is so lazy to me, like we have trillions of colors and that's the best we can do, as far as an user interface goes? i mean i get elegance but that just looks lazy, anybody could make that in paint in 30 seconds

 

i mean jeez, plain black background with plain white text, breaking new boundaries here guys, BLEH

 

Transparency can be done well as long as it's kept fairly minimal. I like how windows 7 handles it. 

Just now, RaTcHeT302 said:

it looks terrible in this case though, it's really hard to read

 

Yeah that's real bad.

Something that didn't occur to me until today. CircleDock is open source and C# based. At least the most recent version is. This might be something fun I can mess with in my off time. I emphasize might because I am very bad at sticking with projects for any amount of actual time.

 

EDIT: Ok, so based on my research, something weird happened wtih CircleDock. The short version is that the .NET version was prototyped by one person before another developer picked up the torch. Then they basically deleted all of their work because they felt trapped by the GPL license that they had inherited. To make a long story short, the version of CircleDock you can find on SourceForge is nowhere near the most recent version of the program. Furthermore, the source code is not the same version as the compiled version of the code. There is some basic functionality missing there. Trying to make it better based on what is already in source code form would be quite a challenge.

My idea of perfect ui is reducing the need of ui whatsoever. Instead of having millions of different programs opened at all times, have only one, or maybe 3-4. This one program is your webbrowser, text editor, file manager, image viewer/editor, music player, all in one.

 

My plan was making all that starting from text editor. I stole the vim idea of using one key hotkeys (without pressing ctrl or anything), but simplified it even more. Let me describe hotkeys.

 

There are multiple modes: navigation mode, edit mode, selection mode. In edit mode, your keys will be typed in as text. In navigation mode, each key has different function:

 

ijkl -- up left down right
s -- enter selection mode
shift-s -- select the whole line
ctrl-s -- select the current function (and copy it)
g -- go to the beginning of the document
shift-g -- go to the end of the document
xcv -- cut copy paste
z -- undo
shift-z -- redo
e -- go to the beginning of word
r -- go to the end of word
shift-e -- go to the beginning of line
shift-r -- go to the end of line
d -- delete character under cursor, or all selected text
w -- save document
q -- close document
shift-q -- close document without saving
; -- open file under cursor
shift-; -- copy path of currently opened file
u -- open the folder this file is in
/ -- search
. -- next search result
, -- previous search result
p -- previous cursor position
n -- next cursor position
shift-p -- previous document
shift-n -- next document
I need to make a hotkey to show the list of all opened documents. Or to just make tabs.

 

So, I did a glitchy as hell text editor, and too lazy to move further. Need to rewrite it to make it less terrible. I originally just used vim, then I used vim mode in emacs and heavily edited, then I just said screw it and made my own thing.

 

Oh, also using rightclick to cancel or go back is a neat idea, I stole it from japanese visual novels. I used it in my mangareader.

 

And I mapped CapsLock to escape in autohotkey. This is where escape used to be on older keyboards. It sometimes passes through, and still triggers capslock, happens very rarely and when my computer is under heavy load.

 

And check out Kingsway game, its core gameplay is trying to fit million windows open on your screen. Tiling window manager would probably be good there, but it's overkill, tabs are usually good enough.

 

Oh, I also liked the way ui is made in world of warcraft addons. You tell to what you want to attach your next element, to some side of the screen, or to some already existing element. Traditional ui, on windows or on html pages is made much more clumsily, it feels more like making a document on paper, line after line after line.

 

Blender3d is famous for its hard to learn, but comfortable to use gui. Never learned it well enough.

There are many directions to "best". There are "simplier", there are "faster", there are "easy to learn". Usually they contradict each other.

 

Blender is good in that there are rarely windows that block other windows, everything is on the screen simultaniously. You press one button, you see effect in the other view immediately. It's not that people are used to, but it's really fast when you know what you are doing.

11 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

oh god please no, i took a glance at that controls list and i want to die

 

i'm the complete opposite, i REFUSE to add hotkeys, unless it's really generic shit, like ctr + s for saving stuff

everything else is buttons, i hate having to memorize crap either way, and i hate it when i tap some random key and i end up deleting half my project away

 

blender 3d sucks donkey kong, it's the worst user interface on the planet, comfortable is not what i would call it, i think "giant convoluted piece of shit" is closer to the truth

 

100% in agreement. This is why GUIs exist, so you don't have to memorize dozens of obscure shortcuts for each different program. (which is one of the biggest problems with command line Linux programs, compounded by the lack of documentation)

Good luck playing rts professionally without hotkeys. This approach is why gui doesn't change, because users refuse to change.

First off, just wanted to say that this video has been on my mind since I first watched it months ago. Granted, the seed was originally planted by NakeyJakey's take on the same issue, albeit with more normie-oriented apps and video games(Not sure how to embed YouTube links, my bad). Even if Jakey's video isn't as in depth, the general sentiment of saving time in the most repetitive acts someone is going to typically do all the time remains the same and is worth a watch, even if they may be more leisure than production based.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vfbVVkwdQw

 

Needless to say, it's not just power users concerned with clunky and unoptimized UI experiences. Even in this thread was a link to what I assume was a song composer raising issues about the unoptimized experience of his professional software(Sibelius IIRC). Other video editors/streamers probably have a lot of common complaints across the same programs that simply aren't vocalizing because we've become complacent with "good enough to make things run without crashing."

 

For the present, the only thing I can offer to Ross is that in Windows 10 you can navigate explorer only using single click to browse and select files(Right click on quick access, options, should be second option in the first tab).

As far as projects go, VR OS is one of the most innovative concepts I've seen in a while.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMwqiAeQDUc

 

This has some serious potential. To my knowledge this is still a prototype and not in any usable state, but I see the bedrock for the future of optimized workflow and user interface.

Even with the features shown in what I understand is a very early build that's still very much in its infancy, we have;

• 360° workspace with multiple virtual desktops.

Where we're going, we don't need monitors . . .

In a virtual desktop environment the need for multiple monitors is eliminated, since workspace can literally surround you in a bubble. The bridge with programs ready at the top and bottom, combined with multiple desktops with different sets of programs/files open is bound to make organization and production a breeze.

• AR tracked Keyboard and Mouse with finger tracking

I think this has the most potential out of everything else showcased. Since the keys change in context with the active window, the physical keys on the keyboard becomes part of the GUI experience!

Now this may just be speculation on my part, but I think the reason changing gears from staring at your screen to looking down at the keyboard has to do with changing focus from the glowing rectangle in front of you to the keyboard directly below; But in a Virtual desktop everything's already glowing, and a simple glance down lets you see the relative position of your fingers over the keys, along with the keys changing context depending on the program. So even if the changing of the gears isn't completely gone, it's at least diminished, and with the display of hotkeys directly on the keyboard, I suspect it will make navigating via both easier. The problem of having to learn hotkeys is gone because you can simply look at your keyboard like a giant menu; and if they're smart in the layout, multiple keys can serve as "zones" where an action may be(ex. Q, W, E, A, S, & D acting as one zone that activates a function, R, T, Y, F, G, & H, activating another, etc.). This also leans to more airplanes and less helicopters since you don't have to be as precise with your keystrokes. In the long run this can even develop into muscle memory, making users faster in the long run too.

• 3D viewing for supported programs

This is a must for anyone interested in CADD, 3D modelling, or game modding in general. Being able to get a sense of scale for things you create in real time is such a liberating feeling and gives a literal new dimension to the work. Aside from productivity, even having something as crude as OVR toolkit in a VR/3D game is great for multitasking, even if it may be at odds with the touted immersion factor that VR is known for.

• Sharing desktop views with other users near seamlessly

Something that's definitely going to become more commonplace in the future. With the benefits mentioned above, being able to have a unified workflow on a common project is going to be an indispensable tool, assuming it works as shown in the finished product.

 

And this is just a prototype! I already have a growing list of features I want for this.

• "Big screen" mode that brings a window front and center, taking nearly your whole FOV. Other active programs can be viewed simply by craning your neck to look around the window that demands your most attention, look down at the bridge, or with HMDs that allow eye tracking, make the window transparent when trying to focus beyond it.
• Programs that can be docked to the keyboard if you prefer a more laptop/typewriter interface(ideal for messaging programs like Discord or Steam messenger)
• Custom Desktop environments(No brainer, you can do your work in a Mechanis Manufactorum with ambient mechanical loops, or a lush fantasy forest that changes with the time of day outside with the soft howl of wind and songs of birds in the distance depending on your mood.)
• Quick launch programs by pressing a single keystroke on the desktop environment with the icons displayed on the keyboard itself.
• Tiling windows in clusters that expand when they're in center view

And that's just with KB+M as an input method! This combined with the Keymouse discussed earlier could give untold speed and productivity, and if you could have multiple cursors you can make Wesker's desktop setup in Resident Evil 4 a reality!(https://youtu.be/LiVvdNmU5r0?t=195)

 

Two cursors could open up a lot of windows(Pun intended). Ross mentioned how he doesn't like the idea of icons in the corner to close programs. A more intuitive(not to mention fun) way to close programs could be to click it with both cursors next to each other, and tear it apart like a piece of paper, window resizing could be handled a similar way by clicking opposite ends of a window and constricting or expanding it with mutual mouse movement. Instead of clicking and dragging, both could be clicked concurrently and both cursors will square up based on relative position to each other. That's just off the top of my head.

 

And this isn't even my ideal input method! Johnny Mnemonic, Minority Report, and Iron Man are closest to my ideal. What I want is a fantasy tech of haptic gloves that have some bit of resistance when interacting with a simulated surface. With that alone, not even a keyboard and mouse will be necessary, even if you like the ergonomics since virtual ones can be substituted easily if you prefer that, but more importantly, will open up to a myriad of gestures that can open programs. I want to tap on my desk and clear all active programs to a clean desktop environment. I want to snap my finger on my right hand to open a web browser, on my left hand to open a file directory, and both concurrently to open a game launcher. If I see something that makes me rage while browsing the internet, I want to pull an Elvis and shoot the offending window, or do a Kamehameha and watch it Derez like Tron Legacy. Navigating my computer should make me feel like a goddamn sorcerer.

 

I don't know if this is anywhere near GUI enlightenment, but damn if it's not a shot.

  

On 10/10/2020 at 9:20 AM, RaTcHeT302 said:

the what?

There are definitely more people on Hulu/Netflix than Curiosity Stream or BitTorrent, and more people playing on mobile/console than a PC. Just pointing out that this is a problem that permeates beyond the PC desktop. Bear in mind, the fact that we're even talking about this puts in in a scant number compared with the majority of people that take issue.

 

On 10/10/2020 at 9:20 AM, RaTcHeT302 said:

idk most of the stuff u are interested in borderlines on pointless gimmicks for me

Can you extrapolate please? I can see that with my eventual end goal of trying to have a Batcave setup that's interfaced with magical gloves, but an AR tracked keyboard with the overlay changing depending on context seems like a straight upgrade to me. I can see that with modern headsets since they're still somewhat bulky and even the original Vive doesn't have enough resolution to properly handle all that small text without a screen door effect, but I'm looking towards the future, free of the shackles of modern design methods and where technology can meet the demand. I'd really like to know where I'm losing you.

 

I can agree that Steam's new UI is shit compared to the old design where near every option was within view, but to my knowledge they allow relatively painless skin replacements, which still makes this an issue, but not as bad as completely taking away the ability to modify as you please. Although that's a whole different can of worms when you start to go into individual programs. As it stands right now, I'm only interested in the desktop/shell, since that's the thing you're going to interact with, no matter what your needs are.

 

On 10/10/2020 at 9:20 AM, RaTcHeT302 said:

also why 360 degree UIs?

I'm not advocating for 360° UIs necessarily, merely a 360° workspace for individual programs.

If you're like me, then 2 monitors is a MINIMUM for regular work/browsing. Aside from how expensive that can be, you're usually only running one program per monitor. This can be easily substituted by the purchase of just one headset, and having as much real estate as you desire for spreading out all of your programs and files in virtual windows the size of monitors, so you still have all that information at the ready.

Don't really know much about designing GUI, but I figured if a had an idea as might as well show it. The basic idea is built on the circle idea but when you click m2 and the different programs pop up, instead of moving the cursor in the direction of the program, the cursor disappears and you control the rotation of the wheel. You only need to move the cursor a small amount as the speed of the wheel is move sensitive, and when you have what you want in the general area, clicking it will either open the program or if it's a folder, will either open a small box or another wheel depending on the size.

 

Any ideas?

3 hours ago, juan guy said:

Any ideas?

Seems like that would be better activated with a Mouse4+ button instead of Mouse2. M2 simply has too many functions in other programs to be replaced with a quick launcher. It may be personal preference, but I think being controlled via the scroll wheel will work better, especially if you have a mouse that can unlock the scroll wheel, making it faster than the cursor. Good for a mockup but I'd like colored tags for programs as well as pie menus for multiple options once you actually select something, assuming it's no more than 5 or so options, then I think a menu would suffice.

1 hour ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

what if you just straight up do not have a mouse with more buttons?

 

you should design an user interface with the general standard in mind, it's a huge gamble to assign basic functionality to advanced or non standard controls

 

and the minimum should be, two mouse buttons

I know this is an outdated thing to bring up, but Apple still had one button mice as the standard until the mid-late 2000s. Granted, Microsoft has had that standard for a while, but standards can improve over time depending on market interest. Just searching "computer mouse" on Amazon gives nearly half of the results featuring mice with Mouse4 and 5, some even less than $10. I also think it's safe to assume that if someone's installing custom dock programs for the purpose of increasing efficiency, then they already have a mouse with at least 5 buttons on it since being able to go forward or back while web-browsing with a single button press is a leap a lot of us can't abandon once we've experienced it, and a lot of mainstream games like Doom and Overwatch have the default melee button as Mouse4 if it detects it. Besides, assuming the software is easily configurable, which it should be, the user can just rebind it to Mouse2 or . . .

1 hour ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

this is stupid but i avoid having the user click his scroll wheel, since from my own experience, my damn scroll wheel always breaks at one point, they are all so poorly made and they never last, and i know that it's stupid but, i'd rather redesign the whole thing so that you can use it with only the mouse buttons

. . . You raise a good point. It's not stupid. Nearly every regular desktop mouse I have, and even most gaming mice I've used have had the scroll wheel give out over time if not just break entirely. Just to clarify, I'm not advocating for activating the circle dock with the scroll wheel, merely flicking through the options with the rolling of the scroll wheel, which just lines up more ergonomically with my mode of thinking.

9 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i've also seen people who are into computer tech, who are elderly, who even though, have used computers since they existed, they still struggle to do really basic shit, and the truth is, that most people are kinda dumb, and in most cases, most people aren't curious enough to find out, what those other buttons do, and a ton of people lack even the most basic level of intuition, meaning that, those buttons half the time, just sit there unused for most people, just because the buttons are included in the hardware, it doesn't mean that most people actually use them for much of anything

The same could be said of right click. This resonates with me, since I've tried to teach family members how to use computers effectively, and even to those who were relatively intelligent and were able to grasp that searching on the internet and on your hard-drive were different things, how to favorite webpages, and even a couple hotkeys were completely foreign to something as simple as right click, so I get where you're coming from. However, that doesn't mean that we should stifle the possibilities of interaction because a fraction can't figure out how to use buttons that their fingers are already resting on.

16 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

plus my point was more about, the idea that if the whole user interface can be controlled with just two buttons, that it's probably pretty well made in the first place, a ton of user interfaces, force you to use hotkeys, and i personally hate hiding functionality behind a hotkey, unless it's really generic, like the esc key to open a menu

Simplicity is a beautiful thing, don't get me wrong. I'm just of the belief that more can be accomplished faster when there are more input methods. Two additional mouse buttons I think is the maximum one should have for a standard anyway, since any more will border on the obtuse by conventional standards. And I can agree, a Graphic User Interface should consist of GRAPHICS! What a thought, right?

Plus, two additional mouse buttons could be enough to allow developers to adapt. I'd much rather fiddle with the ~5 buttons on a mouse than the 100+ on a keyboard.

17 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i feel like a ton of UIs have really finnicky camera systems most of the time, where you need to click 20 buttons just to get the camera to behave, how you want it to, and that's just bad design

As someone who jumped from GZDoom Builder to Blender, I know this pain all too well.