SW KOTOR I & KOTOR II TSL

[Heliocentrical]

I recently played through Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic I and honestly I didn't like it a whole lot. But I do want to talk about it.

Mechanically KOTOR I's engine is a very dumbed down engine from NWN's engine and it really shows. KOTOR I is an RPG where developing stats for your characters isn't a very satisfying thing to do. All of it just seems like a tremendous waste and overall it's not well executed. I wished Bioware had worked on a completely new engine with new mechanics instead of dumbing down the same engine that they used for NWN. It just seems lazy to me.

To me KOTOR I's story was one giant fetch quest with plot thinly layered on top. I can barely remember what I was doing in terms of the plot. I was an important person but I'm not sure why. Then later I became a Jedi knight and my mission was to touch all the giant pointy triangle thingies. Once I've touched all pointy triangle thingies I would be given a map to the super ultra mega triangle thingy. But then I find out that I was a very bad important person!!!! Then I had to make the tough decision of either taking the super ultra mega triangle thingy's power for myself or blowing it up. I know, riveting stuff right?

Most of the characters were uninspired goody two shoes. Except for one and that would be HK-47. If it wasn't for HK-47 I don't know if I would've finished KOTOR I because it's characters were so boring. HK-47 always had me laughing hysterically whenever he elected to comment on something I did or if I talked to him. HK-47 was just great have around wherever I went and so I took him with me at every given opportunity. Outside of HK-47 the rest of the characters were just unbearable. At one point in the game you get the option to kill most of the awful characters and I tell you I could not select that dialogue option fast enough. Bastilla was still there but it was still a pretty huge victory from my perspective.

Overall I just find KOTOR I to be very bland and uninspired. Bioware definitely did not want to go outside of their comfort zone with KOTOR I.

 

[UndeadNecro]

I actually replayed it a while ago and, honestly, building your character properly is pretty difficult. I originally had a charismatic Jedi and that was somehow pretty easy(don't know how, I just never had much issues with fights because, well, lightsabers are pretty OP overall in the game, no denying that, especially when you get them pretty early) but when I replayed it, the stat building for melee was somehow... Different? I don't know, I feel like my first playthrough was pure luck and that melee / the path to becoming a Jedi is pretty difficult. Even if you do get the ability to use the lightsaber, there's a possibility that you can be absolutely shit with it because your stats don't allow you to hit frequently(as in not miss) and deal a lot of damage. I 'unno, I remember looking it up and finding out that ranged is infinitely easier than going for the Jedi path, for the most part, and that using your companions (especially, who was it, Juanni? The bald-headed female - She was a decent agility-esque character) for tanking / support is easier than trying to do it yourself. Hell, even the female-side-character makes the game a lot easier than if you never use her, at all.

I feel like you're being too critical of the plot. Its story takes place, what, thousand or more years before Star Wars Episode 1? There was a lot of creative space there and they did the best with what they had, as well as what they lacked(context, since they couldn't retcon the original series' story in any way, even if by accident). Now, the "triangle" is the star-forge, basically a factory that could mass-produce anything in a short amount of time, created by an(here it comes, super original!) "ancient and mysterious race" that is, surprise surprise, not foreign to the force as a, well, force of power. Yeah, the story wasn't great and the ending really felt rushed out the back-end but it wasn't terrible. I called the plot-twist before it was revealed, though. Now, if SW KOTOR 2 was to be discussed as well, the story is really a big blunder to be honest. Mostly because it's confusing and that might be my fault but because the base game's story is effectively incomplete.

Honestly, kind of tempted to replay them both. The only thing I didn't like about either games wasn't that the companion development was super in-depth for the most part, even KOTOR 2 which kind of had to depend on it for the story, especially with the twist(s) throughout the game. What, there was like, 2 or 3 twists? I love how they linked both of the games too, in a sense anyways.

Also, are spoilers to be expected? I REALLY want to talk about SW KOTOR 2 albeit this thread implies it's about the first game. The second game has a lot to talk about, especially with the story, and the first game is kind of general talk.

Wow, that really turned into rambling.

 

[Heliocentrical]

I would highly recommend installing The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod (TSLRCM) http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-restored-content-mod-tslrcm if you plan on playing KOTOR II. It restores a lot of cut content back into the game. It's a shame that Obsidian were forced to cut all of this content out of their game because they were strapped for time. They had to scrap the entire planet of M4-78. I've played both without and with TSLRCM. I can easily say that the TSLRCM version is the version that Obsidian intend for people to play.

Out of the two KOTOR II TSL is my favorite.

Making me not want to kill every single one of my companions was a nice start. I thought Kreia, Bao-Dur, G0-T0 and Hanharr were great editions. Kreia in particular was spectacular. She had so much depth to her character as this grand manipulator trying destroy the force itself. She despised both the Sith and the Jedi seeing them being manipulated be the force but in different regards. Atton, Mandalore, Visas Marr and the Handmaiden to be lacking but I didn't outright despise them as with everyone else in KOTOR I. Can't really say anything on the Disciple or Mira as I've not played a good character nor a female character. Though I suspect I'm not missing out much with them.

I liked all of the philosophical questions it was asking. How would you kill an entity like the force? What kind of impact do your actions leave behind?

I think I'll add KOTOR II TSL to the title of this thread since you can't really talk about one without the other.

 

[UndeadNecro]

I would highly recommend installing The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod (TSLRCM) http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-restored-content-mod-tslrcm if you plan on playing KOTOR II. It restores a lot of cut content back into the game. It's a shame that Obsidian were forced to cut all of this content out of their game because they were strapped for time. They had to scrap the entire planet of M4-78. I've played both without and with TSLRCM. I can easily say that the TSLRCM version is the version that Obsidian intend for people to play.
Out of the two KOTOR II TSL is my favorite.

Making me not want to kill every single one of my companions was a nice start. I thought Kreia, Bao-Dur, G0-T0 and Hanharr were great editions. Kreia in particular was spectacular. She had so much depth to her character as this grand manipulator trying destroy the force itself. She despised both the Sith and the Jedi seeing them being manipulated be the force but in different regards. Atton, Mandalore, Visas Marr and the Handmaiden to be lacking but I didn't outright despise them as with everyone else in KOTOR I. Can't really say anything on the Disciple or Mira as I've not played a good character nor a female character. Though I suspect I'm not missing out much with them.

I liked all of the philosophical questions it was asking. How would you kill an entity like the force? What kind of impact do your actions leave behind?

I think I'll add KOTOR II TSL to the title of this thread since you can't really talk about one without the other.

I played as a female in KOTOR II and, well, not much to miss, even with the extremely limited romance "stuff" in both games. The disciple is supposed to be like a scholarly adventurer that you meet in the ruins of the old Jedi temple. He's kind of... Okay...? I don't remember anything spectacular about him. I liked Visas and Kreia the most but only because of their stories, with Visas' home being absolutely destroyed by the power of the force and Kreia representing the logical issues with the force that I honestly would have never even thought of without this game. I mean, are sith truly evil? Are Jedi truly good? Those are the questions that made me look at Star Wars and think "What if the Jedi are just *scared* of the force...?" instead of "The Jedi protect the force...?". Now, I'm not going to be *huge* on spoilers here(unless it's warranted and others don't mind) but the main character's existence is one that I just simply don't understand and AFAIK, it's never explained HOW it is a thing but simply that it IS a thing, and KOTOR is supposed to be canon AFAIK because, well, Lucas Arts and all that.

I think my favourite part of KOTOR 1&2 combined was the Sith vs. Jedi ideas, though. KOTOR 2 really hit the "Sith aren't wholly evil" idea home since the "Sith" are represented to be A LOT older than Jedi in terms of history and the extended universe books of Star Wars that explore the beyond-the-universe part of the world touch on this, I think. There's like a secret Sith empire in the dark reaches of space or something like that, which is what I think the ending of KOTOR 2 hinted at. I honestly wanted them to make a KOTOR 3 to touch on all of the unanswered questions because the ending of KOTOR 2 truly left me thinking "What just happened? No, seriously, what the hell happened?" but perhaps I should replay KOTOR 2 because they updated the Steam version IIRC.

 

[Selfsurprise]

To me KOTOR I's story was one giant fetch quest with plot thinly layered on top. I can barely remember what I was doing in terms of the plot. I was an important person but I'm not sure why. Then later I became a Jedi knight and my mission was to touch all the giant pointy triangle thingies. Once I've touched all pointy triangle thingies I would be given a map to the super ultra mega triangle thingy. But then I find out that I was a very bad important person!!!! Then I had to make the tough decision of either taking the super ultra mega triangle thingy's power for myself or blowing it up. I know, riveting stuff right?

Sounds like my dream game!

But seriously, your thread has roused my more self-reflexive and rigorously critical brain cells. I recently started to analyse the whole medium of open-world RPG style fare, largely because it's a game genre I happen to really like. That being said I eventually reach a point of apathy when playing them. I'm not a "completist" gamer, and I'm certainly no trophy munchkin (no offense to any avid trophy munchkins who might be reading this ;p) and part of the problem with open-world games is, irrespective how fascinating and awe-inspiring the setting, I invariably feel disassociated from the narrative because it's far too drawn out and arbitrarily structured. I'm concerned that I'm even peaking over the precipice of indifference for Fallout 4 now, despite it being an excellent title that I've enjoyed immeasurably since it was released. Maybe it's just an inevitable sobering of what was briefly an obsession, and a symptom of my own curiosity in several new and overlooked games I've acquired. I probably play it once a week now, as opposed to the several or more times a week I was bumming my way through the game nought but a month ago.

I came to a somewhat depressing realisation regarding open-world games. They are the kind of game I invest the most amount of love, time and effort into exploring and playing - but as a result I get burned out on the title, more so than other games that I play casually yet piqued my interest for whatever reason.

 

[Heliocentrical]

Even with The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod KOTOR II TSL still feels quite empty IMO. Don't get me wrong KOTOR II did a lot of things right but for KOTOR II to be so good and not tick all the boxes is just painful to see. KOTOR II could've been standing up with the likes of great RPGs like Planescape Torment if it did everything right. Sadly KOTOR II isn't another Planescape Torment. KOTOR II is a good game, it's just not a masterpiece like Planescape Torment.

So with this in mind I would like to talk about things that I think would've made KOTOR II an amazing game if the were implemented.

What if Kreia wasn't the obvious villain? At various points of KOTOR II's development Kreia wasn't the apparent villain. With these alternative villains Kreia would've been killed off and replaced by the following

Spoiler

Atris or the Exile. I'll admit Atris wouldn't have been a good choice as a replacement for Kreia. But then look at the idea of the Exile becoming Darth Traya. This would've been a brilliant idea. The Exile is the literal killing the force so the transition from mere hatred of the force with Kreia to the absolute death of the force would've been seamless. I honestly think this would have been a great ending. Where after training all of your force sensitive companions only to find out that you're the grim reaper of the force. They would have to kill you in order to keep themselves alive but you have to fulfill your destiny of destroying the force. This ending would've been an excellent and gut-twisting tragedy.

What if you could follow a neutral path and stay true to Kreia's teachings? I think Obsidian really wanted to write a neutral path into KOTOR II. But straying from the stereotypical good/evil paths would have been too much of a risk for them financially so I don't blame them at all for not doing this. But at the same time I think a neutral path would've been a very interesting aspect of KOTOR II if they went with it. You could legitimately follow Kreia's path and not be manipulated by the force. Rather you would be manipulating the force itself and killing the force's will. You could learn where the force was silent, tap into areas and learn how to expand upon that silence. Thus weakening and eventually killing the force forever.