Some Feedback Wanted

[e-t172]

Well, you may have failed at the "actual arguments" assignment, but you certainly do a hell of a job super-extrapolating from other people's statements. I bet you can read into my mind right now.

[Frostiken]

Well, you may have failed at the "actual arguments" assignment, but you certainly do a hell of a job super-extrapolating from other people's statements. I bet you can read into my mind right now.

 

Ensuring that your words imply your meaning, and reading that meaning in other people's words are what those of us with what you may call an 'EDUKASHUN' do. Maybe you should stick with Thomas the Tank Engine, and let the real fans read and write posts on the internet.

 

c wut i did thar? See, I took your pretentious attitude towards other people on the topic of codecs and turned it around against you, egotistically telling you that you're stupid and should stop writing posts, because you don't comply with my ridiculous standards.

 

If you didn't want your words to imply that everyone is stupider than you, maybe you shouldn't have written your idiotic thoughts out in the way you did. I'm not even sympathetic to that, because it's so painfully, blindingly obvious that your codec-fueled nerd rage brewed such stirring hate-speech towards anyone who doesn't know that 29.82387423 is the *BEST* FPS to use that, well, of course you're going to deny implying that. Because you're thick, see.

 

 

So far we've established that:

 

"People who want anything other than my codecs don't care about quality and have no business downloading these videos, they're only for the real fans anyway."

"Anyone who uses VLC is a retard because it once screwed up my animes!"

"Anyone who would ever use .avi is a retard."

"XVID is for idiots who hate quality."

 

Good discussion guys. Maybe someone should suggest that we encode with something like .rm just so we can decide what else makes you a retard.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[Indenial]

..rant (the pre edit one)..

 

...I was thinking it and then you said it....

 

I like those discussions nonetheless. While wading through the insults, overamplified opinions there's usually still interesting information in there.

 

Also:

 

I like to play everything in XBMC..

 

Now, silence means it's ok, a free psychological evaluation means it might be slightly sub-optimal.

 

Use it, don't hate it.

[Tamahagane]

@ e-t172

 

Thanks for the reminder about colorspace.

 

With regards to audio, yeah of course, I know that (for example, all DVDs are 48khz, for people who don't know), however what is Half Life in? I don't remember. Haven't played it in ages. My idea is just that it's probably best to use the same khz for all the mixing/recording (game sounds, voice recording), and I'm guessing that HL is at 44.1.

[e-t172]

With regards to audio, yeah of course, I know that (for example, all DVDs are 48khz, for people who don't know), however what is Half Life in? I don't remember. Haven't played it in ages. My idea is just that it's probably best to use the same khz for all the mixing/recording (game sounds, voice recording), and I'm guessing that HL is at 44.1.

 

That's a valid point. However the most important audio is from Ross's microphone, so I don't think it justifies using a non-standard (for video) sampling rate just because background sounds coming from the game are 44.1. Assuming that they're 44.1 (didn't check).

[Ross Scott]

It's a god damn video of a game with graphics from 1998.

This is why I'm not trying to go higher res on Freeman's Mind. Civil Protection has some more eye candy however.

 

For the next ep, why not record it in 3 versions: 1920x1080, 1280x720, and then 864x480.

I won't be going to 1080 with it because due to having motion blur and no dropped frames and limitations of how the source engine saves AVI's, if I did, I would have to do it uncompressed, which isn't practical. 1920x1080 at 180fps (before downsampling motion blur) comes to 64GB a minute v. an average couple hundred megs per shot on Xvid at maximum quality.

 

He's recording on, by his own admission, a crappy $20 mic in his house,

$7 actually, I'm looking through the mic recommendations however, it's mainly the issue of overwhelming the mic I want to fix.

 

That's a valid point. However the most important audio is from Ross's microphone, so I don't think it justifies using a non-standard (for video) sampling rate just because background sounds coming from the game are 44.1. Assuming that they're 44.1 (didn't check).

The vast majority of sound effects for the videos come from other videogame sources, almost all of which are at 44.1, so I record and encode at that to minimize any unnecessary resampling.

 

 

 

From what I'm reading from everyone, I have a bit of a dilemma. H.264 on MKV or MP4 sounds like the best quality to size ratio, however it may require more effort of the viewers than I should be asking. For the record, VLC is NOT a great player. While it can play almost anything, on MKV/MP4 content, I've seen it actually drop frames somehow (while nowhere near 100% cpu usage), incorrectly interpret light values, and mishandle subtitles. This means even though MKV or MP4 may be the superior format, a lot of viewers are going to get a worse experience. It's unrealistic to assume everyone will install a better player and I'm not keen on encoding and hosting many different copies of the videos, so it may be a matter of whether to alienate people who want top quality of the videos v. inadvertently causing a less pleasant viewing experience for perhaps the majority of the viewers.

[Tamahagane]

With regards to audio, yeah of course, I know that (for example, all DVDs are 48khz, for people who don't know), however what is Half Life in? I don't remember. Haven't played it in ages. My idea is just that it's probably best to use the same khz for all the mixing/recording (game sounds, voice recording), and I'm guessing that HL is at 44.1.

 

That's a valid point. However the most important audio is from Ross's microphone, so I don't think it justifies using a non-standard (for video) sampling rate just because background sounds coming from the game are 44.1. Assuming that they're 44.1 (didn't check).

 

 

Just ever so slightly better microphone audio (48khz) doesn't justify upsampling the game audio from 44.1 to 48. If the game's max is 44.1 then it's better to record all audio at 44.1.

 

Like with the framerate, standards are fairly irrelevant as we're watching this on computers...

 

I just checked the WMV files with MediaInfo and it seems he was using 48khz up to Episode 19. Looks like 20 to 37 are 44.1khz.

 

That says nothing about what was used when recording/mixing though, that's just what the audio stream is at now.

 

Then again, either way - your point or mine - it's pretty irrelevant, as we're extremely unlikely to actually hear any difference in quality.

[BTGBullseye]

H.264 in lossless mode? Have you got any clue what you're talking about? Just to give you an idea: the resulting files would be so big that you could fit 30 minutes of video into one Blu-ray and the resulting bitrate so high that no computer would be able to play it in real time. H.264 lossless is for archiving, not for distribution. Sure, I'm a perfectionist, but there are limits to insanity.

 

Also, MPEG-4 ALS/SLS do not have any encoder or decoder available aside from reference implementations. It seems you just did one or two Google searches and then came here just to throw acronyms around. If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't pretend like you do.

No need to blatantly be insulting. Does it really matter? I stated what the best was, not what I would like. I personally would be thrilled if he did MKV with x264 (moderately high quality) and FLAC. (compression setting 5 or greater)

 

For other devices, MP4 with Xvid and AAC or AC3 audio.

 

AFAIK, H.264 is more supported on Apple devices than XviD.

Xvid is available in all qualities that I've tried on the iPod that it was tested on, as well as several other non-Appshit products.

 

Are these devices capable of decoding H.264? Yes, absolutely. So my argument stands: they are indeed capable of playing H.264.

 

The thing is, they don't necessarily have to decode all of H.264. That's why profiles were invented: there's the Baseline profile, the Main profile and the High profile. For maximum compatibility with devices, the Main profile should be used. Well, you could even be compatible with low-end feature phones (yes, even they support H.264 - it's in the 3GPP spec) by using the Baseline profile but then the quality would be horrendous. The reason why you were having trouble with your iPod is that you were enabling High profile features, which aren't always supported on hardware devices.

 

EDIT: well, it seems that iPods and older iPhones only support Baseline. What a shame. I would still expect Baseline to be better than XviD, though. The iPhone 4 and iPad support main profile. Considering that small devices like iPod and iPhones have quite a low bitrate limit, you'll never get any high quality video to play on them anyway, be it XviD or H.264.

 

Again, an "encoding guru" who knows what he's doing won't make this kind of mistakes, and will restrict x264 to the Main profile which is the most supported by non-computer devices.

 

Also, stop confusing x264 (which is an encoder) with the format of the files it outputs, which is a subset of the H.264 specification. There is no such as a "x264 codec supporting device", just devices which support specific features of H.264, regrouped under so-called "profiles".

 

So, I'm gonna reiterate: H.264 is the most supported format, and Main is its most supported profile. You'll notice that this doesn't contradict my previous statements.

Hmmm... Went from being as insulting as possible while being completely wrong, to being as insulting as possible while being only partially wrong.

 

MOST devices can't do ANY 264 decoding. Look it up. Not everyone uses iShit.

[Indenial]

the AVI container currently leading the poll (which made me laugh for a moment, then it just made me sad).

 

Tip: go to the latest youtube video and convince people to vote for MKV here so the future releases there will also have better video. A little politics never hurts in getting things done your way

[wqcr]

Hello Ross,

about that microphone, I'd strongly recommend Samson Go Mic, which is studio-grade large-diaphragm yet relatively small USB microphone. You may check this link: http://www.amazon.com/Samson-Mic-Compact-USB-Microphone/dp/B001R76D42 . It can handle a lot of amplification and thanks to its cardioid pattern, it also doesn't pick up much background noise.

 

Video formats

I have also wondered about MPEG-2 used in DVD-Video standard. If it's encoded in 2-pass VBR, the quality is very good and it's also very compatible

By the way:

P - forward predicted frame

B - bi-directionaly predicted frame

I - intra-frame (sometimes called key frame)

Only intra frames contain full image data, P and B contain movements of the image in specific regions. It's one way, how video compression works.

 

Feel free to add your own opinions

[Pinkie Pie]

This seems more like something you'd just email Ross but um...good job?

[e-t172]

it may be a matter of whether to alienate people who want top quality of the videos v. inadvertently causing a less pleasant viewing experience for perhaps the majority of the viewers.

 

I'm gonna reiterate: what's wrong with telling the "majority of the viewers" to go to Youtube? 720p Youtube is not something I would call ugly. If they care about quality, then they have properly configured players and will download the high-quality releases; if they don't care about quality, then they won't mind going to Youtube. What's wrong with that?

 

Just ever so slightly better microphone audio (48khz) doesn't justify upsampling the game audio from 44.1 to 48. If the game's max is 44.1 then it's better to record all audio at 44.1.

 

Like with the framerate, standards are fairly irrelevant as we're watching this on computers...

 

We're discussing releases that could also be played on hardware devices. So standards are important.

 

Then again, either way - your point or mine - it's pretty irrelevant, as we're extremely unlikely to actually hear any difference in quality.

 

That's not the quality I'm worried about (the difference is indeed negligible). I'm just saying that since 99% of videos are 48kHz, there must be a compelling reason to deviate from this de facto standard. When you're worried about compatibility, you do everything you can to follow standards unless you have a very good reason not to.

 

Tip: go to the latest youtube video and convince people to vote for MKV here so the future releases there will also have better video. A little politics never hurts in getting things done your way

 

You're suggesting I go to Youtube to make my case for MKV? Somehow I don't think that'll work

[Ross Scott]

I'm gonna reiterate: what's wrong with telling the "majority of the viewers" to go to Youtube? 720p Youtube is not something I would call ugly.

I suppose it is an option, but Machinima.com has botched up the majority of video uploads in one way or another. Take "Oil's Well." That was made at 1280x720 @ 30fps with no frame drop. So naturally, Machinima.com uploaded it at 640x360 at 23.976 fps. Or "Friday" where they hard-encoded the letterbox at a lower resolution. The situation is so prevalent I plan on listing notes next to each episode on the website revision explaining what's wrong with the Youtube version. But you're right in that the majority of viewers from the poll don't seem to care on the format.

[e-t172]

I'm not sure I understand. Either way you'll have to reupload the video. So why not upload a new, clean Youtube video and then update links?

[wqcr]

I created new topic, because Ross has still many e-mails for reply:

 

"Well I’m gradually catching up on email and at the moment only have about 100 to reply to. In light of this, I want to get some more feedback from viewers on a couple of different topics. If you’re registered on the forums, I prefer you just reply to this there, but if not, emailing me is also an option."

 

Anyway, I might be wrong. Maybe there's better/cheaper mic, that I don't know about.

[Indenial]

BTW, youtube already handles the portable-player version:

 

 

All you need is a yt-download tool and there's dozens of those. Examples: a browser userscript like yousabletube (see picture), a tool like youtubedownloader, or a site like keepvid.

 

But a non-machinima version would be a must though, because that huge ugly watermark logo of theirs is just obnoxious. It completely ruins the suspension of disbelief.

[Axeldeath]

Shit is going down in this thread, this was the last thing I expected when I clicked on the topic.

[Axeldeath]

Why didn't you just reply on the topic?

[Ross Scott]

I'm not sure I understand. Either way you'll have to reupload the video. So why not upload a new, clean Youtube video and then update links?

Once it's on Youtube under Machinima's channel, it's out of my control. Unless they can keep the exact same link it's not going to get re-uploaded, but I can always update the downloadable copies here (and have).

[the_marshmallow_man]

Ok, well....... again, I'll reiterate my point of view, that I have minimal knowledge of formats/players/whatever. I don't care what format is chosen, but if it changes from WMV then we NEED at least a forum topic about how to play them. What codecs need to be downloaded, what players, etc, etc. I'm not even saying that Ross needs to do it, just SOMEONE.

 

Otherwise, yeah, do whatever. Just don't alienate people by making it too complicated, with no explanation from anyone about how to make it work.