Some Feedback Wanted

[DaftMink]

For me it doesn't really matter which container you use, as long as the releases are consistent and on time!.

 

Preferably in the 848x480 resolution you recently started using on Freemans Mind.

[asscrab]

I'm from Russia, and a lot of people loves Freeman's Mind here too. In Russia very popular releases of Freeman's Mind from portal stopgame.ru, it's a portal about games, as you see, and also they translate some Machinima. For FM they make Voice-Overs (you can watch it here).

 

But they should convert video to another format, when they work with Voice-Over and followed uploading. Of course, quality of video become worser. I worked with video a bit and I know how uncomfortable work with WMV. I think with another codec qualty of video can be better.

 

As for me, both variants XVID-MP3-AVI and H.264-AAC-MP4/MKV are acceptable. But I prefer second because of h.264, it's size. Audio codec and container are not so important.

 

P.S. About MKV\MP4. For users it has no difference, because containers have no influence for quality. And both of them can contain a lot of tracks or subs. Also, AVI can too. But for devices it's important. So if cares about devices, you should choose MP4 or AVI. If not - choose any you like. I like mkv, because it has very comfortable graphic muxer (mkvtoolnix).

 

P.P.S. MKV now included in DivX standard, so producers of devices, who wants to write "DivX Compatible" on device's box must include mkv support in device too. So I think, in a short time a lot of device will be support MKV too.

 

P.P.P.S. people, who vote for WMV just lazy to install codecs.

 

P.P.P.P.S. Sorry for my bad english.

[e-t172]

But they should convert video to another format, when they work with Voice-Over and followed uploading. Of course, quality of video become worser. I worked with video a bit and I know how uncomfortable work with WMV. I think with another codec qualty of video can be better.

 

Why don't they remux the video instead of re-encoding it? They don't need to touch the video, just the audio. So they just have to edit the audio, encode the audio, and remux it with the original, untouched video stream.

[Brian Van Stralen]

I think your video formats are fine the way they are. I was actually watching "Morning Patrol" yesterday, and it's quality was still perfect at full-screen. Still fluid and great picture.

As for your microphone, I don't exactly think I would provide a good opinion, seeing that I use a mic the size of my thumb without a pop-shield.

[Indenial]

The videos I have backed up are higher quality than anything released so far; you'll want these new copies, they'll look better than the WMV ones to date.

 

How about making a big torrent from these and let us handle the distribution.

[Ross Scott]

I've updated the post to include a poll for the results since I'm getting a lot of different answers. Go ahead and cast a vote there if you have a preference.

[-knucklehead-]

People need to just stop being lazy and convert the videos themselves. Freemake Video Converter, people. Use it, it's awesome.

[e-t172]

I've updated the post to include a poll for the results since I'm getting a lot of different answers. Go ahead and cast a vote there if you have a preference.

 

I dont' see the poll.

[CooL]

Hmm, strange, I use a Blue Snowball and I don't get much background noise at all when I'm voice acting, I guess it all depends what setting you have it on (2 is usually the best, but is also pretty quiet). I'm surprised how well your current lapel mic has worked, considering it is a clip-on, but if you don't want to go the expensive route, Logitech makes some really good mics, even an 8 dollar mic from them produces a clear audio sample.

[FinalFuukana]

I hate AVI it's kinda stupid I think mp4 is easy to watch I know, for PC wmv is easiest way to watch, but I use iPod Touch to watch videos including Freeman's mind too, I still can use Handbrake to render wmv anyway but it'd be awesome to render in mp4. But I think wmv is has great quality on it's own so, Just don't use AVI other than that just keep up your good work, Ross.

[BTGBullseye]

I've done a little more research into the formats...

 

For a computer only 'HQ version' MKV/MP4 is best, with x264 (lossless mode) and any lossless audio codec. (FLAC, MPEG-4 ALS, MPEG-4 SLS, etc.)

 

For other devices, MP4 with Xvid and AAC or AC3 audio.

 

I use VLC...everyone should use it IMO

You've never tried Media Player Classic have you... It beats VLC any day.

 

H.264 is the most supported format out there. It's used by Blu-ray, European HDTV, Apple, Youtube, pirates… if, in 2011, someone distributes a video player incapable of playing H.264, that man should be shot. Period.

This shows how little you really know about existing devices and their capabilities. Not everyone has the newest top-of-the-line devices. I even happen to have tested various settings of an x264 encoded video on an iPod of my nephew's; most of the higher compression settings don't play. The x264 codec supporting devices are usually not cheap, this is another problem with using x264 to the exclusion of other formats. Claiming it as 'the most supported format' is outright ignorance.

[e-t172]

For a computer only 'HQ version' MKV/MP4 is best, with x264 (lossless mode) and any lossless audio codec. (FLAC, MPEG-4 ALS, MPEG-4 SLS, etc.)

 

H.264 in lossless mode? Have you got any clue what you're talking about? Just to give you an idea: the resulting files would be so big that you could fit 30 minutes of video into one Blu-ray and the resulting bitrate so high that no computer would be able to play it in real time. H.264 lossless is for archiving, not for distribution. Sure, I'm a perfectionist, but there are limits to insanity.

 

Also, MPEG-4 ALS/SLS do not have any encoder or decoder available aside from reference implementations. It seems you just did one or two Google searches and then came here just to throw acronyms around. If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't pretend like you do.

 

For other devices, MP4 with Xvid and AAC or AC3 audio.

 

AFAIK, H.264 is more supported on Apple devices than XviD.

 

I use VLC...everyone should use it IMO

You've never tried Media Player Classic have you... It beats VLC any day.

 

That seems to be the only fact we agree upon.

 

H.264 is the most supported format out there. It's used by Blu-ray, European HDTV, Apple, Youtube, pirates… if, in 2011, someone distributes a video player incapable of playing H.264, that man should be shot. Period.

This shows how little you really know about existing devices and their capabilities. Not everyone has the newest top-of-the-line devices. I even happen to have tested various settings of an x264 encoded video on an iPod of my nephew's; most of the higher compression settings don't play. The x264 codec supporting devices are usually not cheap, this is another problem with using x264 to the exclusion of other formats. Claiming it as 'the most supported format' is outright ignorance.

 

Are these devices capable of decoding H.264? Yes, absolutely. So my argument stands: they are indeed capable of playing H.264.

 

The thing is, they don't necessarily have to decode all of H.264. That's why profiles were invented: there's the Baseline profile, the Main profile and the High profile. For maximum compatibility with devices, the Main profile should be used. Well, you could even be compatible with low-end feature phones (yes, even they support H.264 - it's in the 3GPP spec) by using the Baseline profile but then the quality would be horrendous. The reason why you were having trouble with your iPod is that you were enabling High profile features, which aren't always supported on hardware devices.

 

EDIT: well, it seems that iPods and older iPhones only support Baseline. What a shame. I would still expect Baseline to be better than XviD, though. The iPhone 4 and iPad support main profile. Considering that small devices like iPod and iPhones have quite a low bitrate limit, you'll never get any high quality video to play on them anyway, be it XviD or H.264.

 

Again, an "encoding guru" who knows what he's doing won't make this kind of mistakes, and will restrict x264 to the Main profile which is the most supported by non-computer devices.

 

Also, stop confusing x264 (which is an encoder) with the format of the files it outputs, which is a subset of the H.264 specification. There is no such as a "x264 codec supporting device", just devices which support specific features of H.264, regrouped under so-called "profiles".

 

So, I'm gonna reiterate: H.264 is the most supported format, and Main is its most supported profile. You'll notice that this doesn't contradict my previous statements.

[SirNicholas]

I'm not an encoding guru, but if you want to encode/decode anything; use the free and open-source program FFmpeg. Almost all the 'free' something-to-something-else programs use it, and most of the time in violation with the FFmpeg license. The downloads available wont let you encode everything as some codecs are not free enough, if you want I can compile it to fit your wishes.

 

I don't really care what format you use, but if you want to switch I recommend a free format/codecs, if you choose OGG-Theora or WebM* you can even have them played on the website with the new HTML5

 

* I've tried encoding some FM episodes to WebM and saw the color problems described by e-t172, but perhaps the encoding guru would be able to fix that...

[Tamahagane]

I know what I'm talking about, and I know I'm right about this...

 

The only real/good choice you have is this: Either continue with the same WMV as you have always done, OR use megui with x264 and AAC audio.

 

I wrote some about this before the forums existed on the comments to one of the videos and suggested the use of x264 then.

 

Basically, to get the highest quality possible, do this:

 

Record the game in 1280x720 or 1920x1080 (or both and make 2 versions), to a lossless codec such as FFV1 (preferably) which is available in ffdshowtryouts, or Lagarith perhaps, but I'd use FFV1. Not sure what colorspace would be best to use when capturing from a game though.

 

I used to do a lot of video encoding but the details about colorspace I can't seem to recall much about.

 

Possibly capture in RGB. megui+avisynth will convert it to YV12. The question is what way is most lossless. If one does do too many incorrect colorspace conversions the result can get quite far from the original source.

 

Also keep in mind Rec601 and Rec709, but that's less of a concern vs. colorspace conversion.

 

Anyway, then you'll have a lossless FFV1 file which you load into megui which creates an AviSynth script (you don't need to -- only rarely, if something specific is needed -- fill it in manually with anything) for the video (megui works at video files thru .avs not the video file directly), and then you use x264 in megui, you go to the 264 settings and max everything out except a few things which are unnecessary (and some things are of course left alone because they have nothing to do with quality, but things such as seeking for example).

 

If you really wanna go at this then I could help you with those settings and stuff.

 

Then you let the video encode to an .mp4 container.

 

x264 encoding at proper quality can take a hell of a long time, but as FM episodes are only 5~10 minutes or so, it should only take a few hours at most.

 

The audio you do afterwards. Use AAC. Optimally, NeroAAC. Depending on what software is used AAC encoding can be a bit weird, it's not that it is complicated to do, it's just that I've had some weird experiences with it. Maybe the easiest way to make the AAC audio file is to first obviously record your audio to WAV (standard 16 bit @ 44.1khz, as I assume the game is at that as well)... then, load that into foobar2000 and convert it to AAC from there. foobar2000 should be able to do it without any problems. It was a very long time since I did any AAC encoding so I'm not sure if foobar2000 supports the NeroAAC codecs though. Also it might be a bit of trouble finding them, but not impossible.

 

Although that's really completely unnecessary. I only mentioned AAC because that's what I'd use because I'm a perfectionist when it comes to certain things.

 

You could just use MP3, no problem. LAME vbr -V0 (or in other words, the highest quality VBR setting, not sure what that setting is called nowadays. In foobar2000 and most other programs you get to select it in the GUI, so no need to worry about what the switch is called). Also, MP3 encoding is much easier/failproof than AAC.

 

Then when you have your x264 file (.mp4 container) and MP3, you start up mkvmerge and drop the MP4 and the MP3 in there and just mux. If you did everthing right then the video and audio will sync perfectly by default.

 

 

 

HOWEVER!

 

I really don't think you should worry about any of this, rather, just continue exactly the way you have been.

 

Because most people are still AVI+XviD junkies AND/OR don't notice the quality difference OR care about the size difference that can be achieved.

 

And most people are retarded and use VLC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHhUcabwkuw

 

(which makes high quality x264-encoded streams in .mkv utterly pointless because everything looks crap and behaves likewise)

 

So, what I REALLY recommend here is the first option: that you continue with the same WMV mode of operation as you've done so far. If you want more quality, just increase res, make the file size bigger.

 

Keep production consistent in all areas, including encoding.

 

For the next ep, why not record it in 3 versions: 1920x1080, 1280x720, and then 864x480. Let the higher-res versions become larger size, and see what people think. Most people probably wouldn't mind 300 to 600mb per episode at 1920x1080.

 

On another note of consistency, I also recommend you keep the same 30.000 FPS. It's not as "normal" or "standard" as 29.970 or 23.976, but people are watching this on computers so that's irrelevant (those FPS's being what's on DVD/VOB for example), and higher FPS could possibly create problems for some people during playback. It's just safest to stay with 30.

 

So... yeah.

 

Worry less, or nothing really, about the encoding. Just focus on the actual quality of the series, that is, on the deliverance of the Freeman character, instead.

 

Keep him BOTH consistent AND interesting, which so far he's been most of the time.

[Frostiken]

Go figure that a discussion about something as pathetic and menial as codecs turns into a bunch of ego-inflated nerds calling anyone who uses anything even remotely 'mainstream' a "retard", and then start arguing about problems that barely even exist.

 

 

 

It's a god damn video of a game with graphics from 1998. It's not like we're imaging cancer slides or trying to find Russian missiles. If you seriously need to download a "1080p" copy (which is wrong on so many levels) to enjoy it, seriously, what the fuck is the matter with you? You're going to piss and moan and throw an epic fucking shit-fit nerd-rage-gasm because a certain audio codec is "lossy" (because you say so because your super-human dog-like hearing can tell that it's clipped in the 25khz range), yet you're not going to rage about the fact that Ross isn't recording in a professional studio with sound-proofed baffling to eliminate echoes, recording on a $45,000 mic with $200k of mixing equipment?

Edited July 10, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[e-t172]

Record the game in 1280x720 or 1920x1080 (or both and make 2 versions), to a lossless codec such as FFV1 (preferably) which is available in ffdshowtryouts, or Lagarith perhaps, but I'd use FFV1. Not sure what colorspace would be best to use when capturing from a game though.

 

If you want to do true lossless compression from game captures you must use the RGB24 colorspace. Any conversion to YUV will be lossy because it's done in integer.

 

Possibly capture in RGB. megui+avisynth will convert it to YV12. The question is what way is most lossless. If one does do too many incorrect colorspace conversions the result can get quite far from the original source.

 

In a proper encoding chain there must be zero "incorrect colorspace conversions". There should be one and only one: RGB24 to YV12 with the proper video levels and gamut mapping. Of course I expect this to be more difficult to verify when using GUIs like megui instead of using x264 directly. You're just paying the price of user-friendliness.

 

standard 16 bit @ 44.1khz, as I assume the game is at that as well

 

The standard audio format for videos and everything else except music is 48kHz, not 44.1, which is only used on CDs. 48kHz should always be used on videos.

 

Because most people are still AVI+XviD junkies AND/OR don't notice the quality difference OR care about the size difference that can be achieved.

 

These people can just as well go to Youtube. The releases we're talking about are aimed at people who care about quality.

 

And most people are retarded and use VLC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHhUcabwkuw

 

Thanks you for the good laugh I despise VLC for its shitty video rendering, it seems other people are having other problems as well. It definitely is a shitty player.

 

For the next ep, why not record it in 3 versions: 1920x1080, 1280x720, and then 864x480. Let the higher-res versions become larger size, and see what people think. Most people probably wouldn't mind 300 to 600mb per episode at 1920x1080.

 

Wait… you're saying the same people who use VLC and like WMV would download 1080p episodes? I don't think so. As I said, we need to differentiate here.

 

On another note of consistency, I also recommend you keep the same 30.000 FPS. It's not as "normal" or "standard" as 29.970 or 23.976, but people are watching this on computers so that's irrelevant (those FPS's being what's on DVD/VOB for example), and higher FPS could possibly create problems for some people during playback. It's just safest to stay with 30.

 

I agree. Exact 30 fps is rarely seen, but I don't think hardware devices will have issues with it. It would be possible to slow the video down to 29.97 by resampling the audio, but I don't think it would be useful.

[e-t172]

Nothing like a discussion about codecs to make all the audio/videophiles come out to bicker, insult everyone with their massive fucking egos, and bitch about minor details that don't even exist.

 

 

'DON'T USE THAT CODEC, ONLY A FUCKING IDIOT WOULD USE THAT BECAUSE IT CLIPS THE SOUND AT 25KHz OMG YOU'RE ALL SO STUPID USE MY . ONLY FA**OTS USE .'

 

Hey, I believe you're the insulting one here. Thank you for editing your post, I take that as an apology.

 

Seriously? Insulting people who are 'too mainstream' and use .vlc?

 

If his point for .wmv was for compatibility, .mkv would be the LAST codec to use.

 

From what I understood, the reasoning is that people who don't care will just use Youtube, so it's a non-issue for them. We're discussing releases for people who actually care and are not satisfied with Youtube or WMVs.

 

That's also the reason why the current poll is meaningless: if you just ask everyone, including people who don't give a shit about quality, you get absurd results, such as the AVI container currently leading the poll (which made me laugh for a moment, then it just made me sad).

Edited July 10, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[Frostiken]

I'll bet you also used Opera back in the day too and bitched about everyone who was stupid enough to use Firefox instead.

 

I guarantee you if you lined up a whole series of codecs of the same video shot and encoded differently, people like you wouldn't actually be able to point out the 'best' one, even by your own lofty standards.

 

He's recording on, by his own admission, a crappy $20 mic in his house, and you're stressing out about lossiness of the audio codec as if you're listening for submarines. Yeah, tell us how we're all "retards" and should go use Youtube with the rest of the mainstream sheeple and that we don't deserve to download the videos, which are for REAL fans.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[e-t172]

Well, I think I'm gonna get some popcorn. In the mean time you might want to throw in some actual arguments amongst the personal attacks and baseless statements. It isn't fun for long when it's so obvious.

 

Also, I never said people who don't care about quality are "retarded" or something like that. They're just normal people with different priorities. I'm just saying Youtube is enough for them, so I don't see why we should be discussing lowest common denominators like AVI, WMV or XviD.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[Frostiken]

Well, I think I'm gonna get some popcorn. In the mean time you might want to throw in some actual arguments amongst the personal attacks and baseless statements. It isn't fun for long when it's so obvious.

 

"which made me laugh for a moment, then it just made me sad."

 

Yeah, good argument there. You outright imply that everyone who voted for it is incredibly stupid, but that's not the best part. The best is that you're so fucking pretentious and stuck up your own ass that you don't even explain why you look upon everyone who voted for it with such disdain. Did smelling your own farts cut too much oxygen to your brain and you forgot the whole 'actual arguments' part? Not to mention the whole 'had a laugh' is language you would use to describe, I don't know, seeing a small child answer a question with a cute but stupid answer. Though I doubt you actually laughed, or were even sad, only saw an opportunity to try to elevate yourself and your pathetic, useless and mostly baseless "knowledge" of codecs above the rest of us mainstream Eichmanns, you melodramatic nerd.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)