Gun Control...

[BTGBullseye]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-24/u-k-gun-curbs-mean-more-violence-yet-fewer-deaths-than-in-u-s-.html

 

UK you're less likely to be killed in an attack, just maimed and hurt real bad... Not to mention the fact that you're about 3x more likely to have a violent encounter in the UK as well.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

And now according to both of these links, despite unbelievably strict gun control laws, you still have firearms killing people. (people without guns die a lot easier than people with guns)

[Vapymid]

Yeah, the power of selective quoting... From the same Bloomberg article:

 

“You’ve got 10 times the likelihood of being killed in violent crime in the U.S. than you have in the U.K.,” Steve Killelea, the founder of the institute, told the BBC today. “The strict gun controls in the U.K. are one of the reasons you’ve got such good homicide rates.”

 

despite unbelievably strict gun control laws, you still have firearms killing people.

 

Of course we have - it's not possible to vet out 100% of mentally unstable people and there is always the black market. Just fewer people die from firearms than what would happen otherwise.

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

Yes, and you still haven't said anything about the fact that a person with a gun is a lot less likely to be killed or attacked by any criminal.

[Vapymid]

I haven't said it because I'm not sure it's the case. Give guns to everyone and instead of a drunken punch up in a pub they will be having drunken shoot outs. Not my idea of quiet life

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

Give guns to everyone and instead of a drunken punch up in a pub they will be having drunken shoot outs.

Do you have even the remotest of proof of that?

 

Vermont has the most guns per-capita in the US, and people there don't have to have a concealed carry permit to carry concealed weapons... It also has the lowest crime rate per-capita in the world. (in every category)

[Vapymid]

I don't know about Vermontians but the Brits here haven't changed since the middle ages - give them guns and ale and they WILL shoot.

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

So you're saying that Americans with guns are more civilized than Brits... I agree.

[Vapymid]

Or maybe Vermontians just don't see enough of each other for long enough to get crossed, take aim and pull the trigger before their quarry disappears behind the trees - given the population density there

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

So you're saying that Americans with guns are more civilized than Brits... I agree.

 

Considering that Americans didn't riot after 9/11 and that British people burned down mosques after a British soldier was beheaded, I wholeheartedly agree.

[BTGBullseye]

I guess my whole argument comes down to, if you've never used a gun in your life, you have no right to make any decisions concerning them. I f the best you can come up with is statistics, you're no better than a government entity that doesn't really care about the lives involved.

 

I was recently in contact with a friend of my sister, her husband had a revolver in the house for defensive purposes, but it ended up killing her 3 year old... Know what she said about it? She wishes she had kept closer watch on her kid. That's all. She doesn't blame the gun, she doesn't blame her husband. (now ex for other reasons) How would you respond to her opinion that guns shouldn't be legislated against?

 

I was also talking to another friend from one of the bad gang neighborhoods in Phoenix, AZ (she moved away from those neighborhoods years ago) and has had 1 brother, and both parents killed by guns. She's not anti-gun, even though she's never owned one. She also thinks gun laws are stupid, though she used significantly more colorful terms in describing the futility of making laws concerning people that don't obey any laws. What is your response to her position?

[ThePest179]

My opinion on the matter is that it's okay for assault rifles/automatic guns (such as AK-47's and Uzis respectively) to be banned, but anything beyond that is bullshit overreaction.

[Vapymid]

Considering that Americans didn't riot after 9/11

 

Don't know what you mean by "riot" but after 9/11 in the US there were scores of redneck idiots roaming the country and shooting or beating up people wearing turbans, the majority of which, of course, were sikhs and not muslims at all. You seem to have a bit of a memory drop-out on that...

 

Anyway, if this turns into some kind of former-colonials v their-former-masters one-up contest, I don't think it will lead us anywhere.

 

if you've never used a gun in your life, you have no right to make any decisions concerning them.

 

Well, that will disqualify most people in the developed world unless you have a cunning plan for installing NRA enthusiasts into every ministerial post in Europe which has something to do with guns. I'm not sure that will be a wise or a well-received strategy.

 

How would you respond to her opinion that guns shouldn't be legislated against?

 

Her family is clearly an example of guns being put in the wrong hands. I guess she realises it but is overwhelmed by guilt and is blaming herself to an exclusion of everything else. If you can't keep your gun safely away from a 3-year old you should not be allowed to keep a gun.

 

What is your response to her position?

 

Well, she is from one f*cked up neighbourhood it seems... My response to her position is that my opinion still stands: gun distribution must be stringently controlled but I don't support total ban on them.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

Considering that Americans didn't riot after 9/11

 

Don't know what you mean by "riot" but after 9/11 in the US there were scores of redneck idiots roaming the country and shooting or beating up people wearing turbans, the majority of which, of course, were sikhs and not muslims at all. You seem to have a bit of a memory drop-out on that...

 

Regards

 

I meant like Americans acting toward Muslims like the Egyptians do to Christians. Also, if you could direct me to some sources for your claims of hicks shooting Muslims/people who looked similar (not that I deny it, I just need confirmation) I would be much obliged.

[Vapymid]

Here are some links: here, here and here.

 

The sources are quite credible and I myself clearly remember the BBC coverage of some of these cases at the time when they happened.

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

if you've never used a gun in your life, you have no right to make any decisions concerning them.

 

Well, that will disqualify most people in the developed world unless you have a cunning plan for installing NRA enthusiasts into every ministerial post in Europe which has something to do with guns. I'm not sure that will be a wise or a well-received strategy.

Do you feel that someone who has never had an injury in their life should have total control over all forms of pain medications?

Do you think that people who have always had there own way should be the ones taking away other's choices through legislation?

Do you think that people without experience should be telling people with experience what to do? (this applies to everything, not just guns)

 

How would you respond to her opinion that guns shouldn't be legislated against?

 

Her family is clearly an example of guns being put in the wrong hands. I guess she realises it but is overwhelmed by guilt and is blaming herself to an exclusion of everything else. If you can't keep your gun safely away from a 3-year old you should not be allowed to keep a gun.

Except she doesn't really blame herself either... She was at work, and a friend of her husband's was watching the child. Her life didn't end, "she though it would for the first month or so) and she went on with life. She has a 2 year old now, and is going to teach her gun safety as soon as she is able to absorb it. (usually around age 3 is a good start according to her)

 

What is your response to her position?

 

Well, she is from one f*cked up neighbourhood it seems... My response to her position is that my opinion still stands: gun distribution must be stringently controlled but I don't support total ban on them.

Gun distribution can't BE controlled when the the distribution is illegal in the first place. Why don't you understand that?

[Vapymid]

Do you think that people without experience should be telling people with experience what to do? (this applies to everything, not just guns)

 

Often, experience can be replaced by knowledge. You don't require every medical student to have their legs broken before they get their medical licences, or only let doctors who have had cancer to treat cancer patients - they learn on examples and thoughts of others.

 

Experience can also be irrelevant. Experience in firing or stripping guns, for example, is irrelevant to making a political decision about their use. Experience in living in gangs-infested slums, on the other hand, may be very relevant, even if you never actually fired a gun in your life, but few of the potential decision-makers would have it...

 

Sometimes, experience is counter-productive. Experience in operating one type of aeroplane can kill you if you instinctively apply it to a different type, for instance.

 

Gun distribution can't BE controlled when the the distribution is illegal in the first place. Why don't you understand that?

 

I don't understand why do you think I don't understand - I said several times that I am in favour of legalised private gun ownership, subject to certain [strict] rules and regulations.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

Here are some links: here, here and here.

 

The sources are quite credible and I myself clearly remember the BBC coverage of some of these cases at the time when they happened.

 

Regards

 

These are awful incidents of some bastards attacking innocent people, but nothing on the scale of open rioting and the burning of mosques. Also, guns won't change condition for how many people die. The conditions for murder rates in countries vary, but weapon variety does not.

[BTGBullseye]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

 

Go down to the "Country subdivisions" section, and expand the United States stuff... The states/territories that have the highest homicide rates are also the ones with the strictest gun control laws...

 

Oh, and that notice at the top that the rates don't match the cited source, they did 8 months ago before the source changed them, and the change was by a very small amount, and on on years after 2005. (I could reference that this is a smudging of the numbers intended to favor the Obama administration, but this isn't the topic for that)

[Vapymid]

Correlation is not the same as causation. For instance, there is a high correlation between the number of people with umbrellas and rain in London. That does not mean that umbrellas cause rain.

 

If you do a more detailed analysis of the statistics you will probably find that states with lower homicide rates are also those with the higher income per capita and education levels, which are much more credible causes of lower murder rates.

 

It is logical to assume that when there are less drivers for people to kill each other, the more relaxed gun rules will not be harmful. On the other hand, if the population is angry and aggressive due to greater deprivation/poverty levels, adding more guns to the mixture will be like putting oil into fire.

 

So, what I am trying to say is that the gun laws may be stricter in some states because of the higher crime levels, rather than the crime levels in the other states lower due to relaxed gun laws.

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

It's not... The crime rates used to be higher across the board, except in DC... (yes, before the listed dates in that source) 36 states have Concealed Carry laws, those are the 36 with the lowest crime in the US, Utah and Texas used to be in the worst 5, now they aren't...

 

Going by you analogy, you're claiming that my side would be among those claiming the rain is caused by umbrellas, but I would say that's your side mostly. The rain makes people want umbrellas for protection, but they can still be used to beat someone or stab them if you're unscrupulous. (provided they have the right tip, it can be used for stabbing, and has)