Gun Control...

[danielsangeo]

Please elaborate on how a registration/training requirement would violate the 2nd Amendment.

[Blue]

As far as I know (which is not much), the people against the American Gun Registry are people who fear that if their weapons are registered, the Government will take their guns away from them (a false assertion) or that the Government will have the power to take their guns away from them.

[danielsangeo]

Like cars, right?

 

(Especially hilarious as I was stuck in rush hour traffic for over an hour and just got home.)

[ProHypster]

A Makarov Pistol, a knife, that's about all you can have legally without documents in Ukraine

[Doom Shepherd]

The way I see it, in order to operate a car on any public road in the United States, you need to be able to show that you can operate the car and that you need to be licensed to do so.

 

False analogy? There are 130 million automobiles in the United States weighing about a ton each and confiscation would be impossible. We've seen gun confiscation and its results in many other countries. The analogy to automobiles also fails because cars are not used in self-defense to protect lives.

 

Yet were we to truly treat guns like automobiles, we would have to remove most gun restrictions because guns are already regulated much more strictly than automobiles.

 

It is legal to buy a vastly overpowered automobile... or a cheaply-make "Saturday night special."

There are no "background checks" required to purchase an automobile. Or "waiting periods."

Purchases are unrestricted, you can buy as many cars you want from just about anyone, anytime.

A property owner whose driver's license is revoked can still drive his jeep all over the property without penalty. Indeed, he can drink a case of beer before driving around his property and still enjoy the ride knowing that he is not violating a single law provided that he does not injure an innocent person.

 

And a whole lot more.

 

As far as I know (which is not much), the people against the American Gun Registry are people who fear that if their weapons are registered, the Government will take their guns away from them (a false assertion) or that the Government will have the power to take their guns away from them.

 

False? It's harder to find examples where registration did NOT eventually lead to confiscation.

 

Tell it to the Cubans. Before 1958, Cuban dictator Batista had all citizens register their firearms. After the revolution, Raul and Fidel Castro had their Communist thugs go door to door and, using the registration lists, confiscate all firearms. It's happened elsewhere, as well. Including Canada. (They did not confiscate ALL guns in Canada, just the ones they decided to ban, but the previously existing registration made this MUCH easier.)

 

Turkey, 1911. Ask the Armenians.

China, 1935.

Cambodia, 1956.

Guatemala, 1964. Ask the Mayan Indians what happened.

Uganda, 1970.

 

And of course we all know about the Soviet Union and Germany. (In Germany's case, the liberal Wiemar Republic established the registration, and the guys who came afterwards just made effective use of the lists.

 

Does registration ALWAYS lead to confiscation? No. But it is an ESSENTIAL step in the proccess.

 

(This is yet another example of one of my favorite personal axioms of government... "NEVER give yourself power that you don't want your enemies to have in a few years.")

[ProHypster]

 

(This is yet another example of one of my favorite personal axioms of government... "NEVER give yourself power that you don't want your enemies to have in a few years.")

offtopic:

 

I'm sorry, there was a country like that once...

they tried to be as poor as they can so that nobody attacked them.

 

They were called Sparta...

Ever heard of them?

 

Problem is, I don't see them around anymore...

[Doom Shepherd]

 

(This is yet another example of one of my favorite personal axioms of government... "NEVER give yourself power that you don't want your enemies to have in a few years.")

offtopic:

 

I'm sorry, there was a country like that once...

they tried to be as poor as they can so that nobody attacked them.

 

They were called Sparta...

Ever heard of them?

 

Problem is, I don't see them around anymore...

 

That's weird that you're quoting me, 'cause your comment doesn't seem to have any relation to anything I said.

[danielsangeo]

The way I see it, in order to operate a car on any public road in the United States, you need to be able to show that you can operate the car and that you need to be licensed to do so.

 

False analogy? There are 130 million automobiles in the United States weighing about a ton each and confiscation would be impossible.

 

Size of such is irrelevant. Usage is irrelevant. In the United States, government confiscation is very hard to do, constitutionally.

 

As far as I know (which is not much), the people against the American Gun Registry are people who fear that if their weapons are registered, the Government will take their guns away from them (a false assertion) or that the Government will have the power to take their guns away from them.

 

False? It's harder to find examples where registration did NOT eventually lead to confiscation.

 

Again these countries you listed did not have our Constitution.

 

However, Switzerland.

 

Does registration ALWAYS lead to confiscation? No. But it is an ESSENTIAL step in the proccess.

 

Sounds like a slippery slope fallacy to me. If you want to go after confiscation, then go after confiscatory practices. Registration/training requirements =/= confiscatory practices.

[ProHypster]

 

(This is yet another example of one of my favorite personal axioms of government... "NEVER give yourself power that you don't want your enemies to have in a few years.")

offtopic:

 

I'm sorry, there was a country like that once...

they tried to be as poor as they can so that nobody attacked them.

 

They were called Sparta...

Ever heard of them?

 

Problem is, I don't see them around anymore...

 

That's weird that you're quoting me, 'cause your comment doesn't seem to have any relation to anything I said.

Well, what did you mean by "Never give yourself power that you don't want enemies to have in a few years" because that was exactly the motto of Sparta.

 

On topic though, I think it's alright to own a limit of 2-3 guns per person without registration because anything more than that would be very likely used in a crime or group offense. Oh, and I actually have a question, in the States of America, can you have a self-made or legitimate crossbow or bow and arrows, ninja stars without registration?? Does it depend on the state there?

[Doom Shepherd]

Well, what did you mean by "Never give yourself power that you don't want enemies to have in a few years" because that was exactly the motto of Sparta.

 

Political power. And not your foreign enemies, your domestic political enemies.

 

An example would be party in power changing a governmental procedure or a law to make it more advantageous to the party in power.

But in the next election, due to some other issue, they get voted out, and now their enemy party has the power.

 

Say, for example, one party in power (We'll call them "Demoblicans,") votes to give itself much more power over what gets put on television. Maybe they create a new "Department of Public Information" and give it sweeping censorship powers...

 

But RIGHT before it can be utilized to its full effect, they lose the next election... and suddenly their mortal enemies the Republocrats suddenly have not only completely different views as to what should be allowed on TV, but the idea that they can also use that power to subtly propagandize against the Demoblicans, who are now screwed by the very power they tried to give themselves.

 

 

 

The two main partioes in the US have not learned this lesson yet, and vote themselves new powers all the time, which is one of the reasons our system has gotten as unweildy as it has.

[IneptGuard]

Please elaborate on how a registration/training requirement would violate the 2nd Amendment.

 

 

Sure,

Infringement: an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege. Also defined as: a breach or infraction, as of a law, right, or obligation; violation; transgression.

 

Like it or not, forcing people to register their guns or lose their right to own them is infringement. Forcing people to attend training courses that they will be paying for out of pocket just to obtain permission to purchase / own a gun is Infringement.

 

While I said that I agree with training let me tell you what I had to go through just to get my class A license. First I had to fill out the application form my local police station, then I had to pay to attend a one day training course ($100). After that I had to present my certificate as well as a $100 check to the town in ordered to start the process. I was interviewed by a detective, fingerprinted, photographed and had to be added to the FBI's database. after which I was given the license on the spot and sent on my way.

 

Now let me tell you what buying a gun is like. Drive to the store, the guys where I shop are very friendly and polite. browse a bit and make your choice. then you have to fill out an request for purchase form (Can't remember what it's called) on it you go through a barrage of questions and after that has been filled out the store clerk fills out his own section on the form and then you have to place your finger on the electronic scanner, your print is instantly sent to the FBI's national criminal database and a thorough background check is run. If you have a single arrest or any criminal history for that matter, you have to wait five days or more to collect you firearm while they run a more extensive background check. If no criminal record is present then you can leave with your purchased weapon.

 

Considering all that one must go through to acquire a gun I don't believe that more laws and restrictions would have any real effect on crime. If you feel otherwise ask yourself this: Is punishing the majority for the crimes committed by a few the correct way to deal with crime?

[danielsangeo]

Please elaborate on how a registration/training requirement would violate the 2nd Amendment.

 

 

Sure,

Infringement: an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege. Also defined as: a breach or infraction, as of a law, right, or obligation; violation; transgression.

 

Like it or not, forcing people to register their guns or lose their right to own them is infringement. Forcing people to attend training courses that they will be paying for out of pocket just to obtain permission to purchase / own a gun is Infringement.

 

While I said that I agree with training let me tell you what I had to go through just to get my class A license. First I had to fill out the application form my local police station, then I had to pay to attend a one day training course ($100). After that I had to present my certificate as well as a $100 check to the town in ordered to start the process. I was interviewed by a detective, fingerprinted, photographed and had to be added to the FBI's database. after which I was given the license on the spot and sent on my way.

 

Now let me tell you what buying a gun is like. Drive to the store, the guys where I shop are very friendly and polite. browse a bit and make your choice. then you have to fill out an request for purchase form (Can't remember what it's called) on it you go through a barrage of questions and after that has been filled out the store clerk fills out his own section on the form and then you have to place your finger on the electronic scanner, your print is instantly sent to the FBI's national criminal database and a thorough background check is run. If you have a single arrest or any criminal history for that matter, you have to wait five days or more to collect you firearm while they run a more extensive background check. If no criminal record is present then you can leave with your purchased weapon.

 

Considering all that one must go through to acquire a gun I don't believe that more laws and restrictions would have any real effect on crime. If you feel otherwise ask yourself this: Is punishing the majority for the crimes committed by a few the correct way to deal with crime?

 

I'm still failing to see how a licensing and training program is infringement since no one is telling you that you can't buy one. I bring out cars because they have a licensing and training program and it's not even for a weapon. And there are over a billion vehicles worldwide and over 200 million in the United States alone. So, licensing and training programs for cars have not infringed on anyone's right to drive. I don't see how a licensing/training program encroaches on anyone's right to own a gun.

 

Yes, you have to go through a lot to get a gun, but you have to go through a lot to do things in this country. I went to get an apartment. I was in the rental office for three hours filling out paperwork. Getting a license to drive takes forever and a day. And these are completely harmless things. This isn't "punishment", it's just the way things are and it protects everyone involved. A loan from a bank takes five days or more, sometimes, to get. How about buying a house? None of these extraordinarily long and drawn out processes are "punishment".

 

Complaining about the necessary things that you have to pay out of pocket to do something where you're buying something seems, to me....I dunno..petty?

[Axeldeath]

You guys are complaining about having to do a day of training and have background checks done on you? If you want to own a pistol in NZ the requirements are-

 

-Applicant must be a current member of a pistol club, a financial member of Pistol New Zealand (or in some cases membership of an approved club) and have attended at least 12 club shoots in the last 6 months before they can apply

-Applicant must be sponsored by their club

-The endorsement holder must attend at least 12 club activities (either at their home club or to another recognised club) in a financial year

-Normally limited to no more than 12 pistols registered to their licence

- Pistols must be of an approved sporting type i.e. barrel length of more than 10 cm (3.9 in)

-Pistols can only be carried to and from the range in a locked container with ammunition in a separate container or to a gunsmith.

[ProHypster]

You guys are complaining about having to do a day of training and have background checks done on you? If you want to own a pistol in NZ the requirements are-

 

-Applicant must be a current member of a pistol club, a financial member of Pistol New Zealand (or in some cases membership of an approved club) and have attended at least 12 club shoots in the last 6 months before they can apply

-Applicant must be sponsored by their club

-The endorsement holder must attend at least 12 club activities (either at their home club or to another recognised club) in a financial year

-Normally limited to no more than 12 pistols registered to their licence

- Pistols must be of an approved sporting type i.e. barrel length of more than 10 cm (3.9 in)

-Pistols can only be carried to and from the range in a locked container with ammunition in a separate container or to a gunsmith.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_hom_wit_fir-crime-gun-violence-homicides-firearms

 

Ukraine is still lower were you can legally have a makarov without any registration.

 

And holy cow, United States is so high.

 

and Here:

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita

 

although in this statistic New Zealand is very fine:

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

[IneptGuard]

I'm still failing to see how a licensing and training program is infringement since no one is telling you that you can't buy one. I bring out cars because they have a licensing and training program and it's not even for a weapon. And there are over a billion vehicles worldwide and over 200 million in the United States alone. So, licensing and training programs for cars have not infringed on anyone's right to drive. I don't see how a licensing/training program encroaches on anyone's right to own a gun.

 

Driving a car is not a right, it is a privilege. A privilege that can be revoked in the blink of an eye by most law enforcement agencies, state or federal organizations. They can do this because there is no constitutional law that says you have the right to drive. The 8th and 9th amendments are the only ones that come close. So I suppose one could try to convince the supreme court that the right to drive is protected by constitutional law but I'd say that you have better chance of winning the lottery.

 

 

Yes, you have to go through a lot to get a gun, but you have to go through a lot to do things in this country. I went to get an apartment. I was in the rental office for three hours filling out paperwork. Getting a license to drive takes forever and a day. And these are completely harmless things. This isn't "punishment", it's just the way things are and it protects everyone involved. A loan from a bank takes five days or more, sometimes, to get. How about buying a house? None of these extraordinarily long and drawn out processes are "punishment".

 

I'm sorry if that came across as complaining as I didn't intend it that way. I don't have a problem with the purchasing process. I only wished to give the people here that have never gone through the process an idea of whats involved so that they can draw their own conclusions. I believe that the laws that are in place are more than enough, perhaps even too much.

 

 

Complaining about the necessary things that you have to pay out of pocket to do something where you're buying something seems, to me....I dunno..petty?

 

Well, you have the right to vote but you can only do so after registering with your town hall. That sounds reasonable right? Now what if I told you that there is a $200 fee for registration process? Suddenly voting doesn't sound like a right anymore does it?

 

 

You guys are complaining about having to do a day of training and have background checks done on you? If you want to own a pistol in NZ the requirements are-

 

-Applicant must be a current member of a pistol club, a financial member of Pistol New Zealand (or in some cases membership of an approved club) and have attended at least 12 club shoots in the last 6 months before they can apply

-Applicant must be sponsored by their club

-The endorsement holder must attend at least 12 club activities (either at their home club or to another recognised club) in a financial year

-Normally limited to no more than 12 pistols registered to their licence

- Pistols must be of an approved sporting type i.e. barrel length of more than 10 cm (3.9 in)

-Pistols can only be carried to and from the range in a locked container with ammunition in a separate container or to a gunsmith.

 

The US was practically founded on the right to own firearms. We where born from the fires of a revolutionary war and as a result we saw fit to create laws that would ensure the protection of our rights from our own government. Our gun laws are less restrictive than some others because guns are part of our history and are deeply rooted in American culture.

[Axeldeath]

Our gun laws are less restrictive than some others because guns are part of our history and are deeply rooted in American culture.

 

And I find that disturbing.

[Doom Shepherd]

Our gun laws are less restrictive than some others because guns are part of our history and are deeply rooted in American culture.

 

And I find that disturbing.

 

Nah, it's just a result of the circumstances.

 

There weren't enough Maori to start with to make suppressing them and establishing your own country over their civilization as much of a tactical and personal defense challenge as it was here.

 

And I say that as a guy who's part Iroquois.

[RueThePirate]

Have them take a test to see the state of their mental sanity. If they pass, give them the weapon they desire. If not, keep an eye on 'em.

[Michael Archer]

I hope to own an M1 Garand sometime in the future. I don't think the Canadian government will have qualms with a heavy, long, eight-magazine rifle. Also, if I have a little bit more free time and money after my M1, I want to own an 1861 Springfield Rifled Musket. I'd actually prefer a good quality one that can fire real bullets than a restored old-fashion one that I'd be afraid to shoot for fear of breaking it. Why do I want this ancient muzzle-loader? Well, look me in the eyes and tell me this isn't cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2zYhtC38PU&t=2m2s [quote]As far as I know (which is not much), the people against the American Gun Registry are people who fear that if their weapons are registered, the Government will take their guns away from them (a false assertion) or that the Government will have the power to take their guns away from them.[/quote] Not really. I think the biggest fear is that it costs a shitload of money and doesn't really do anything, and operates under the assumption that anyone that owns a gun is a psychopath until proven otherwise. Now that Harper has his majority, maybe Canada will finally get rid of the stupid, ineffectual registry. [quote] Driving a car is not a right, it is a privilege.[/quote] Because having the right to drive a car implies you have the right to use other people's property without permission. The government "owns" the roads in a sense, so they can choose who can ride on it. Ideally, the roads should be owned by corporations, but even then, the corporations would decide who gets to drive on it under what conditions. Owning a car though, that's a right.

[BTGBullseye]

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."

"The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get-rich-quick theory of life."

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA -- ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the state."

"When the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was Governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually."

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

 

What do you think of those?