FREEMAN'S MIND 2: EPISODE 16

[daisekihan]

I'm not trying to invoke something like the No True Scotsman fallacy, I'm telling Ross that the fans who are donating to him won't stop if he stops FM2. He was getting plenty of donations even before he restarted the series.

 

If you think what Ross wants to do is irrelevant, I don't know what to say. If FM2 wasn't a drag on his productivity for projects he actually wanted to be, we would have more than 15 episodes over 4 years.

Edited November 6, 2021 by daisekihan (see edit history)

[Im_CIA]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:40 PM, daisekihan said:

I'm not trying to invoke something like the No True Scotsman fallacy, I'm telling Ross that the fans who are donating to him won't stop if he stops FM2. He was getting plenty of donations even before he restarted the series.

 

If you think what Ross wants to do is irrelevant, I don't know what to say. If FM2 wasn't a drag on his productivity for projects he actually wanted to be, we would have more than 15 episodes over 4 years.

 

I probably won't stop donating, but I'll definitely feel like a large chunk of things I actually look forward to will be torn away. GD can be hit or miss for me.  You're acting like FM is some kind of dead weight that's slowing down Sisyphus, but the majority of the shareholders seem to genuinely enjoy the content. 

 

If this was an AVGN situation where the quality seems to be going down the shitter because the creator is just phoning it in, then I may agree with you. But the amount of work going into this seems to tell a completely different story. Making custom triggers and whole new maps isn't something a burn out would do. 

[Ducksauce]

Hey Ross! I happen to love this shit. I reckon that Freeman has stayed in character remarkably well. No mean feat considering how long the show has run. It's tough to stay consistent and you're doing great. I think the biggest problem people encounter is that they forget how neurotic and anti-social Gordon really is in some respects and tend to disregard how much his situation has affected him and fundamentally defies all sane reason or logic. Keep up the good work! As Dave would say "SING! SING! SINGGGGGGGGG!!!!"

[daisekihan]

If Ross keeps his current tac of having all of Freeman's interactions be him yelling at them for not displaying what Ross considers realistic human behavior, we're going to have a bad time.

 

Just contrast one of the early episodes where Freeman needs a door opened to this one.

 

"I am Captain Gordon Freeman of the Intergalactic House of Pancakes ordering you to open!"

 

"Open the door!...Open the fucking the door!"

 

That pretty much sums up how flat Freeman's characterization is these days. And I think it's ultimately because Ross's heart just isn't in it anymore.

 

[Kaweebo]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:40 PM, daisekihan said:

I'm not trying to invoke something like the No True Scotsman fallacy, I'm telling Ross that the fans who are donating to him won't stop if he stops FM2. He was getting plenty of donations even before he restarted the series.

 

If you think what Ross wants to do is irrelevant, I don't know what to say. If FM2 wasn't a drag on his productivity for projects he actually wanted to be, we would have more than 15 episodes over 4 years.

 

What Ross wants to do is not irrelevant, but if fans are donating for FM content, it becomes kind of like a business transaction at that point. And it's clear people want Freeman's Mind to continue, myself very much included. I also don't think you are quite as familiar with Ross's work schedule. Aside from IRL issues distracting him, Ross has always been very detail-oriented and obsessive about certain things that tend to slow down video output. He's got other projects (including his movie, remember) he works on and it's obvious Game Dungeon can take a long time for him to get a video out. And if he doesn't want to take focus away from that while he's in production to pump out an FM here and there, that's perfectly fine. I don't mind waiting. 

 

But I don't think his lack of interest is what's making the series slow-going. It's only one of several videos he juggles, and according to him from what I remember in a stream a while back, it's actually the least stressful to make. And if I agreed that the show's quality was going down, then sure I'd agree with your point. But like I said, I think it's only gotten better with time. Whether Ross enjoys it or not, he's still talented enough to pull out good content, even if you think it's phoned-in. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Kaweebo (see edit history)

[QuakeIV]

To be honest I came here to ask if anyone was still making subtitle files, however I feel the need to add my own voice given the current direction of the conversation.

 

Freemans mind 2 felt forced to me in some of the earlier episodes (probably even still leftover youtube comments from me buried in the massive piles of nearly completely uniform positivity from back then), however I think it really has started to come together.  This episode felt forced compared to the directly preceding ones, but I thought that water hazard in general came out pretty good.  I particularly like the new environments that got added during that section, and felt like gordon's reactions to things were fairly organic and felt relatively good.  For instance, speculating about how the helicopter cherry bomb things worked seemed like a really organic thing for an engineer to be thinking/talking aloud about and came out really well.

 

I think it gets most forced when gordon is interacting with the characters.  For instance I felt as if the 'its as if this is just a game to her' joke in particular didn't really hit.  Like there was an attempt to convey that it was a ridiculous mindset but he actually felt like it was pretty much to be expected, so what would have in past years been a joke came off sounding more tired and fed up than it did amusingly annoyed.  Who knows, maybe thats the direction the character is going in, but I'm unsure if that was intentional.

 

The impression I have personally gathered from the video chats is that continuing the series is considered to be a necessity.  To be honest my personal impression of the ravening hordes of youtube dudes (many of whom are not very old and who are therefore not very even keeled) is that thats probably a correct conclusion.  However as someone who personally really likes the series, I would ask that a fairly slow and circumspect schedule be taken in order to try to preserve the overall quality and that most focus be given to series that are of more immediate interest to produce.  In the past year a total of two episodes of freemans mind 2 were released, and I think thats actually more or less enough to keep the hordes appeased, at least from looking at the view counts and so forth (https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/chilledsanity/monthly seems fairly flat over the past couple of years).  I am therefore inclined to say that a handful of episodes a year might actually be an acceptable release schedule.

 

This is a fairly long winded way of saying that I think overall the way you have been doing things the past year was right and you should continue, but I felt the need to justify myself.

[The Screw]

I didn't really like this episode, but I blame Black Mesa East more than anything wrong with the show. NPCs talking at Gordon just isn't that entertaining, whether I'm playing the game or watching Freeman's Mind. The parts of this episode that made me laugh were all Gordon talking to himself.

[daisekihan]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:52 PM, Kaweebo said:

What Ross wants to do is not irrelevant, but if fans are donating for FM content, it becomes kind of like a business transaction at that point. And it's clear people want Freeman's Mind to continue, myself very much included. I also don't think you are quite as familiar with Ross's work schedule. Aside from IRL issues distracting him, Ross has always been very detail-oriented and obsessive about certain things that tend to slow down video output. He's got other projects (including his movie, remember) he works on and it's obvious Game Dungeon can take a long time for him to get a video out. And if he doesn't want to take focus away from that while he's in production to pump out an FM here and there, that's perfectly fine. I don't mind waiting.  

 

Fans are not donating for FM2, I suspect. Ross started taking donations before FM2 even started, after the beg-a-thon. There was no expectation he would do Half Life 2. The fans who donate are primarily not here for Freeman's Mind 2 (including myself when I can donate) or else the fact that there has been so few days episodes would be reflected in his donations. I am familiar with his schedule and it seems to me like he is far more interested in making the Game Dungeon, even to the extent thar FM2 feels more like a Half Life 2 Game Dungeon where Ross picks the game apart rather than making Freeman an appointment with enjoyable character to experience the story with. Like I said before, it's like someone in a D&D game who constantly points out the gamey-ness of the experience and won't even make an attempt to meet things half way. 
 

As for the Movie, while I have honestly started to doubt whether that project will ever come to fruition over the many years since Ross announced it, I am fairly certain that if Ross didn't have FM2 out, he would be closer to finishing it.

[Kaweebo]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:21 AM, daisekihan said:

Fans are not donating for FM2, I suspect. Ross started taking donations before FM2 even started, after the beg-a-thon. There was no expectation he would do Half Life 2. The fans who donate are primarily not here for Freeman's Mind 2 (including myself when I can donate) or else the fact that there has been so few days episodes would be reflected in his donations. I am familiar with his schedule and it seems to me like he is far more interested in making the Game Dungeon, even to the extent thar FM2 feels more like a Half Life 2 Game Dungeon where Ross picks the game apart rather than making Freeman an appointment with enjoyable character to experience the story with. Like I said before, it's like someone in a D&D game who constantly points out the gamey-ness of the experience and won't even make an attempt to meet things half way. 
 

As for the Movie, while I have honestly started to doubt whether that project will ever come to fruition over the many years since Ross announced it, I am fairly certain that if Ross didn't have FM2 out, he would be closer to finishing it.

If Ross did not feel like fans were donating with the expectation of a Freeman's Mind 2, then I do not think he would have made it. Even you say he feels 'obligated'. After the original series ended, he left it with the implication that he may start again with the next game. And while FM may or may not be what fans donate for primarily (I would assume they donate just to support Ross period), it's clearly what the majority of the audience enjoys. Your own personal gripes with it are not relevant at all, I hate to keep having to be the bearer of bad news for you. 

 

Though I have to ask if we even watched the same show? Like, are you forgetting that Freeman screamed constantly at everyone and made fun of the level design in the original? Especially when you take the context in which the character is in (he was just chased by police, then immediately gassed and suddenly everyone in the base is acting completely calm). Whether the story reason for the Combine coming down on them is Mossman selling them out or not, Freeman is an ultra paranoid man already and would have seen an invasion coming regardless. I feel like you think Ross is disrespecting HL2 or something by not making him more agreeable to the story circumstances. He's just rolling with the punches of what the narrative gives him in the framework of a character like Freeman who is already a neurotic, highly paranoid individual who JUST went through a stressful ordeal in the Black Mesa incident and is immediately brought forward into an alien dystopia. He doesn't trust anything even when the situation is on the up-and-up, so how do you think he'd act when red flags are getting posted up everywhere? And the thing is, Ross still manages to make it funny to watch, at least for people like me. I'm just not seeing the same problems you think it has. FM2 is exactly what I wanted when Ross started making it, and more because I appreciate the little mod touches he has done to spice up some of the level design to have it make more sense. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Kaweebo (see edit history)

[daisekihan]

I'm not bothered by disrespecting the story. In the original Freeman pointed out the level design, but now that is all he does, namely complain about the gamey aspects. In moderation, this is funny, but if it's all he does, it starts to break any sense of immersion that I'm really watching Gordon Freeman's perspective and not just a slightly exaggerated Ross doing a playthrough and constantly pointing out the plot holes. Even if you say "This is what the character would do", that doesn't make it entertaining to watch. He might as well just do a Half Life 2 Game Dungeon at this rate.

[ScumCoder]

On 11/6/2021 at 1:47 PM, Kaweebo said:

it's clearly what the majority of the audience enjoys. Your own personal gripes with it are not relevant at all, I hate to keep having to be the bearer of bad news for you.

It’s the opinion of the “majority” that is irrelevant. Ross’s modus operandi is to have a fanbase consisting of two distinct parts: a very small but utterly devoted group (300-400 people) who keeps supporting him for years on end, and a faceless crowd of indifferent Youtube watchers (a lot of whom probably don’t even know his name).

 

I hate it when money comes into the discussion of art, but since you keep bringing this up – I did a quick web search, and looks like my donations are roughly equal to about 100,000 Youtube views. (And I’m even not an avid donator at all). This should give you a rough idea of just how differently different opinions weigh (in your own money-based worldview).

Quote

if fans are donating for FM content, it becomes kind of like a business transaction at that point

As daisekihan has already told you several times, it’s actually well possible to get an insight about what fans are donating for – just go to the donations page and look for correlations between certain events and donation surges.

 

 

I think It’s pretty obvious that

Quote

the fans who are donating to him won't stop if he stops FM2

and

Quote

Fans are not donating for FM2, I suspect.

 

[ScumCoder]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:16 AM, Kaweebo said:

It doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s funny, I and many others do.

Quote

It’s clearly inspired enough to make me laugh and that’s all it needs to be.

God, that is almost childishly egocentric.

 

Again, I hate to sound like I am entitled to tell Ross what to do, but other people obviously don’t seem to have this problem, so here is MY opinion.

 

The reason why I enjoy Ross’s work is the chemistry it emanates. I think the English word for it is “vibe”. I might not care whatsoever about the discussed game (or the discussed topic in general), but if Ross cares – really cares – then the video starts radiating some sort of energy, which draws me in and charges me in a certain way. In fact, Ross himself has voiced my own thoughts exactly.

 

To give an example, I rewatched a lot of his gaming streams (that he self-consciously uploads to a separate channel called “junk”), his Lecarde Chronicles playthrough probably being my favorite. His genuine interest is so apparent, his emotions so sincere, that watching those videos starts feeling like a journey with an old friend.

 

In contrast, watching recent FM episodes gives me the same feeling as the late “Gothos” episode.

Cringe.

My subconscious mind keeps showing me an image of jaded Ross sitting in front of a monitor, trying to come up with something – anything – that’s not been said before. (And trying not to puke from the very sight of the sickening Source engine).

 

This is what I am

Quote

getting out of advocating for its end, other than some sense of moral busybodying over a grown man’s decision

, Mr. armchair psychologist. How’s that for “nonsense ‘I’m just concerned for his enjoyment!’ argument”?

[daisekihan]

In any case, I've said my piece, and I don't feel like an endless debate. I hope Ross knows that the fans who really support him will comtinue to do so with or without  FM2.

[grayling]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:17 PM, QuakeIV said:

To be honest I came here to ask if anyone was still making subtitle files, however I feel the need to add my own voice given the current direction of the conversation.

danielsangeo still works on subtitles for smaller videos (like FM2) but for longer ones like most game dungeons he stopped. you can contribute by making your own subtitle files if you've got the time for it

[Kaweebo]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:29 AM, ScumCoder said:

God, that is almost childishly egocentric.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know I could speak for anyone but myself. Maybe you feel comfortable importing your own personal biases onto other people and assuming you know what's good for them, but I tend to believe that my voice only goes for myself and what I can see as observable evidence, which 82,000 video views on this latest episode alone seems to prove. So pardon the fuck out of me for expressing my opinion that I enjoy the show anyway, even if you think Ross is phoning it in and contributing to its declining quality. Both of those comments were in response to you guys putting forth your own opinions as if they were the only ones that matter and reason for Ross to stop making episodes, to which I argued that I felt the opposite. 

 

On 11/6/2021 at 8:29 AM, ScumCoder said:

Again, I hate to sound like I am entitled to tell Ross what to do, but other people obviously don’t seem to have this problem, so here is MY opinion.

The only person telling Ross what to do was the guy who wrote a formal fucking request to end the show based on his own dissatisfaction with it and nothing else. Every other argument you people have made comes from theorizing on Ross's mental state like actual arm-chair psychologists based on comments he's given and substituting evidence with your own personal headcanons on the reality.

 

 

On 11/6/2021 at 8:29 AM, ScumCoder said:

My subconscious mind keeps showing me an image of jaded Ross sitting in front of a monitor, trying to come up with something – anything – that’s not been said before. (And trying not to puke from the very sight of the sickening Source engine).

 

See, like that. Ignoring the fact that if he really hated working on the show, he could quit at any time. There's nothing actually keeping him on but his own willingness to continue making it, regardless of whether he enjoys it or not. He's expressed his thoughts on continuing Freeman's Mind and yet fan demand brings him back. That's up to him to decide if he wants to continue listening, which he seems willing to do so far. But I would not begrudge him if he had no steam left for it. I just hate people putting themselves out there to influence him to quit because they don't like it. That's insulting to Ross, number 1, because you're essentially badmouthing his work and trying to wrap it up in a pretty 'I just don't think your heart is in it' bow, and it's insulting to those of us who patently disagree with your assertion that quality has declined. 

 

Honestly, I'm uncomfortable even talking about what Ross should or shouldn't do because it's not any of our decisions to make. My only argument was that it's not anyone's place to request he put a stop to something based on their individual opinion. It's narcissistic to think your opinion is that fucking important that it deserves to be seen one-on-one and given as much credence as the 45,000 other people who still tune in to watch. 

On 11/6/2021 at 8:29 AM, ScumCoder said:

How’s that for “nonsense ‘I’m just concerned for his enjoyment!’ argument”?

It still is and was. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Kaweebo (see edit history)

[Kaweebo]

On 11/6/2021 at 7:55 AM, ScumCoder said:

It’s the opinion of the “majority” that is irrelevant. Ross’s modus operandi is to have a fanbase consisting of two distinct parts: a very small but utterly devoted group (300-400 people) who keeps supporting him for years on end, and a faceless crowd of indifferent Youtube watchers (a lot of whom probably don’t even know his name).

 

I hate it when money comes into the discussion of art, but since you keep bringing this up – I did a quick web search, and looks like my donations are roughly equal to about 100,000 Youtube views. (And I’m even not an avid donator at all). This should give you a rough idea of just how differently different opinions weigh (in your own money-based worldview).

As daisekihan has already told you several times, it’s actually well possible to get an insight about what fans are donating for – just go to the donations page and look for correlations between certain events and donation surges.

 

 

I think It’s pretty obvious that

and

 

You put all that work into an argument that has no bearing on anything I was saying, all to tell me that you think your opinion is worth more than it actually is based on, what, donation to youtube viewer average? What the fuck does that have to do with anything?  The donations weren't my real point anyway, I was only using it as a counter to daisekihan's claim that Ross feels obligated because it's a popular series and fans directly contribute to his income, so if you wanna call me on that, fine, I fucked up.

 

My point is still, to put it concisely, "It's stupid to write a thesis on why Ross should quit making a show on YouTube because you personally do not like it." And that's all it ever was until you barged in to defend a retarded argument. 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Kaweebo (see edit history)

[Im_CIA]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:26 AM, Kaweebo said:

, "It's stupid to write a thesis on why Ross should quit making a show on YouTube because you personally do not like it." 

 

Yeah, exactly.

 

I think everyone should have a quake 3 team death match about this. It will decide nothing, but the loser will have the privilege of buying my next lamb platter from Halal Guys. 

[daisekihan]

I guess I'm going back on what I said earlier by continuing this, but it is not my belief that Ross should stop making them because I dislike them. I think Ross should stop making the series because he seems to dislike making it. On his streams, the most enthusiasm he can come up with for FM2 is that it's better than working a day job. If Ross really is still passionate about the project and a lack of care has nothing to do with the recent episodes, he should by all means keep trying to make them. But I highly doubt that to be the case.

[kerdios]

should I really bother reading these text walls if I really couldn't be less interested in whether FM continues or not?

[Im_CIA]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:27 AM, daisekihan said:

If Ross really is still passionate about the project and a lack of care has nothing to do with the recent episodes, he should by all means keep trying to make them. But I highly doubt that to be the case.

It's not a lack of care. Modifying the gravity gun and having a whole custom entry (apparently even one of the lines the rebel said in the beginning came from HL Episode 2) doesn't show all lack of care. From your arguments so far it just seems that you disagree with the direction that the writing is taking. You want him to be goofy Freeman instead of shell-shocked Freeman.

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Im_Unemployed (see edit history)