Bioshock: a criticism of capitalism and objectivism?

[Michael Archer]

For those of you who've never played Bioshock: leave this thread immediately and go buy a copy. It's a brilliant game.

 

For the rest of you: I loved Bioshock. Not so much for the gameplay, but more the story and the underlying philosophy. If you didn't pick that up, the philosophy that Andrew Ryan advocates is Objectivism: a philosophy that was defined by Ayn Rand; it holds that reality exists independent of consciousness and that human beings must observe it. Your goal in life is to pursue your own happiness and that the only system conducive to that is lassiez-faire capitalism.

 

I loved Bioshock's intro and I like how the only difference between Andrew Ryan and Ayn Rand is three letters and a penis. Don't believe me? Read this: http://www.nasonart.com/personal/lifelessons/fountainhead.html

 

But just about now I started thinking: is the message of Bioshock that capitalism is a bad system? When you get there, the society has gone to hell and anarchy. Is the message that capitalism is bad?

 

I worried about this for a long time. I loved Bioshock and I really didn't want to have to throw it away. Fortunately, the more I thought about it, the more it looked like it wasn't a criticism, and if anything it was advocating it.

 

Certainly the beginning of it is amazing when you come out over the city and you see what is possible when man puts his mind to something. I think that the reason Rapture went to hell was not because of Andrew Ryan, but because of Fontaine. Fontaine was using force to try to topple Ryan's legitimate limited government all in the name of helping Sofia Lamb expand her statist ideas; Ryan was simply responding with retaliatory force. Fontaine won, Ryan lost his credibility, the people went crazy and everything went to hell.

 

Bioshock 2 was not that great. Yeah sure, it was saying how statism could not fix a society and it made me like Andrew Ryan even more, but one thing that stuck out was one of the audio diaries. The game was trying to make you care about your daughter, and I did; one audio diary instantly changed my mind. In it, she said, "Mother's philosophy [statism/subjectivism] is just as corrupt as Ryan's [objectivism/capitalism]" Somehow, she's throwing out both the subjectivist and the objectvist theories...what does that leave left? Well, there's the intrinsic theory (the theory that things are intrinsically good or bad), but really, it's subjectivism.

 

So, what do you guys think? Is Bioshock commie propaganda?

[ProHypster]

.....

.....

....

......

......

 

Yes it is communist propaganda made by the communists to destroy capitalism because they're evil and all... trying to kill the earth.... every single communist and socialist government there is evil I mean, clearly. The EU is evil. Canada is evil, those damn canucks!, Cuba is evil, Russia is evil, Ukraine is evil, i am evil too, ....

 

The only good nation on earth is America, African nations and some South American Nations which are truly Capitalist.

 

Let's sing:

 

God Bless America!... (I don't know the rest of the song)

 

Michael Archer, if I proved to you that far right capitalism is actually fascism, yes that other "terrible" word, would you stop being such a capitalist craze?

[Axeldeath]

I would answer properly but.... Michael Archer's view's on capitalism are warped (IMO) at best (from what I've seen in the Capitalism vs. Statism thread).

[Arby]

Too tired for full reply right now, but I'll leave it enough to say that I am an Objectivist.

[ProHypster]

The obvious answer to this is that it's not "Communism" or "Capitalism" that is evil, it's how people take these to their advantage. And both can be used as a weapon.

 

I have a story to tell what really happened in the Soviet union as I am a direct descendant of the Soviet Union:

 

I know for a fact (From parents and friends who hated the soviet union because they thought like they lived their whole lifes were already predicted by the government) the Soviet Union government/schools taught the citizens to help old people, respect everyone around you, work hard, study the world! Although my parents say that there was probably the best system for the elderly who friendly people would come up to and help go across the street without anyone being scared of criminals (Which is now a very rare sight) the problem was that generally people were fed up with the boring lifestyle and started drinking and drinking and not caring. The people grew too lazy in the end, so lazy that the factories got corrupt and food production was lagging behind population (My mom worked in one of the biggest factories and she said every engineer went home not finishing their work to drink or have a party at home) . In the end the system collapsed due to that, the fact that there was millinos of diversities in the Soviet Union who simply felt invaded (had nothing to do with communism) and the horrific war in Afghanistan killed the economy completely. But let's remember that during the Soviet Union everyone got a guaranteed house, car, healthcare and medium cash amount. The police was decent. I'm pretty sure healthcare was a bit better then the pretty bad canadain one right now with the long and unnecessary waiting time.

 

Looking at the current situation, we just catched up with the average life expectancy since a huge drop after 20 years ago when the soviet Union collapsed. Lots of minors are now on many western imported drugs and criminals began to rule the streets. Now lots of people drink because of sad times not because there is nothing to do. Companies make monopolies and misuse their workers and become rich themselves not paying any taxes. On the good side though our economy started to rise rapidly after about 1998 thanks to these (mostly criminal) monopolies. Police accept bribery too much. Pensions are lower, casual people can't afford shelter, luckily we all have a 3 story house back from communism and an apartment to ourselves, but a person starting with nothing has a low chance of survival here. A lot of people want communism back (especially the elderly), I for once don't, as I know it will only lead back to the lazy life style which will cost the economy. What I want is a Social Democracy and that is what most people want. A mix between capitalist strictness in economy and social way of life. One thing i do know is that we are finally going forwards pretty stable and I hope that's going to continue.

 

So that is my story on that matter, guys, thank you for reading, I hoped it showed that both systems can be used for good and for the bad.

[that guy]

That's a nice point of view and i agree with most of that. Though I can't agree with the police being decent back then. Of what I have heard, buying off the police was a common sight in the Soviet Union. In fact you could bribe almost anyone and anywhere. Let's say it's 1980 and you need to get on a train in Moscow, but all the tickets have been sold out. What do you do? You offer the cashier a chocolate bar plus the money for the ticket and there you have it. This was extremely common.

[Arby]

Ok, let me do my best to define what I'm thinking here (I just woke up so I'm not expecting the most eloquent expression possible here)

 

In my opinion, Bioshock 1 was an intended critique of Objectivism, Ryan was an insane, paranoid tyrant by his end, who was murdering in the name of "the greater good" of the defense of the city against "the parasites," deadlocked in a war against an avowed criminal who played the role of "freedom fighter" for the people of Rapture and friend of the poor. Ryan, and the city, were victims of his ideology which, when presented with the unlimited excesses ADAM provided allowed monstrous actions by men who became monsters.

 

That's what I think the developers intended, but it doesn't hold up upon closer evaluation, and I much prefer Bioshock 2.

 

The chief components of the downfall of Rapture were: ADAM's infinite possibilities being exploited by persons who felt no limitations of any kind, Ryan's increasing paranoia and hypocrasy (his willingness to compromise his beleifs in the name of the defense of his city, such as his usage of Sullivan as his muscle), and the forces which prompted Ryan's actions: Fontaine's criminal activites and later utilization of the underclass of Rapture to battle Ryan for power, and Sophia Lamb (of Bioshock 2, for those who don't know) and her Collectivist, Altruist, philosophical battle with Ryan.

 

It is my opinion that Ryan's initial construction was the utopia he desired, but a combination of moral compromising by the people and Ryan, Ryan's tyranny ADAM, and Lamb's Collectivsm and Fontaine's power struggle with Ryan was the downfall of the city, not the philosophy of Ayn Rand, whom few in the city followed with any consistency.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[Bjossi]

Bioshock [...] It's a brilliant game.

 

Badum tish.

[Kirkreng]

Bioshock [...] It's a brilliant game.

 

Badum tish.

What are you implying?

[ProHypster]

That's a nice point of view and i agree with most of that. Though I can't agree with the police being decent back then. Of what I have heard, buying off the police was a common sight in the Soviet Union. In fact you could bribe almost anyone and anywhere. Let's say it's 1980 and you need to get on a train in Moscow, but all the tickets have been sold out. What do you do? You offer the cashier a chocolate bar plus the money for the ticket and there you have it. This was extremely common.

I'm sorry but bribery didn't exist as it would be easy to spot when someone is obviously richer then you as the objective was to make everyone equals in richness.

 

How do you think someone would bribe someone anyway??? Everyone had the same cash amount. Bribing 10 extra dollars which can only buy you a little more food wouldn't really work that well...

 

That's the reason there was no thiefs either, it would be so obvious and too pointless as you can't even "buy" a house, you get one by how much you have contributed.

 

Besides, the police got decent wages back then and most were proud to serve the country.... Referring to police 1970 and after.

[Bjossi]

What are you implying?

 

Is that rhetoric?

[that guy]

I'm sorry but bribery didn't exist as it would be easy to spot when someone is obviously richer then you as the objective was to make everyone equals in richness.

 

How do you think someone would bribe someone anyway??? Everyone had the same cash amount. Bribing 10 extra dollars which can only buy you a little more food wouldn't really work that well...

 

That's the reason there was no thiefs either, it would be so obvious and too pointless as you can't even "buy" a house, you get one by how much you have contributed.

 

Besides, the police got decent wages back then and most were proud to serve the country.... Referring to police 1970 and after.

 

I guess we have different sources.

[113]

Well It seems that they where both a criticism of the extremes of both philosophies. Both Ryan and Lamb where so far into their own philosophies that they thought there way was the only way to live properly. So it wasn't really saying capitalism is bad m'kay more of believing your way is the only way to the point you become hypocritical tyrant is bad....m'kay.

I could of worded that better but I fail... *sigh*

 

On the subject of Bio2 i personally enjoyed it as much as Bioshock the only annoying thing to me is the bugs that'll never get fixed. Oh if only GFWL would allow 2K to release the ridiculously huge patch that would be needed because they baked the files.

[Lord Sinister]

"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, Where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well."

 

Sounds to me like he's rejecting communism.

[Arby]

I've always hated how he stressed "petty morality" as if he wants to escape any moral code in that line. I think it would read better as 'a petty morality' but maybe it wouldn't flow as well.

[Michael Archer]

Guys...

 

This is the gaming thread. This thread is about Bioshock and its setting.

 

Eleven out of the fourteen replies has nothing to do with the game. I'll just ignore those.

 

In my opinion, Bioshock 1 was an intended critique of Objectivism, Ryan was an insane, paranoid tyrant by his end, who was murdering in the name of "the greater good" of the defense of the city against "the parasites," deadlocked in a war against an avowed criminal who played the role of "freedom fighter" for the people of Rapture and friend of the poor. Ryan, and the city, were victims of his ideology which, when presented with the unlimited excesses ADAM provided allowed monstrous actions by men who became monsters.

 

I never felt Ryan was a tyrant. Throughout the game, I always did feel like I was playing on the wrong side (until Fontaine came in, that is).

 

Ryan was never a "greater good" kind of guy. That's more Sophia Lamb. I don't remember Ryan murdering anyone; I haven't played this game in a long time, I could be wrong about that. What I do remember is that Ryan was quick to suppress any enemies of the state (and rightfully so) e.g. Julie Langford in Arcadia.

 

Sounds to me like he's rejecting communism.

 

He's rejecting, in order:

 

Socialism, any form of government where religion is the head of the state, and communism.

 

Basically, he's rejecting statism.

 

I've always hated how he stressed "petty morality" as if he wants to escape any moral code in that line. I think it would read better as 'a petty morality' but maybe it wouldn't flow as well.

 

Yeah, that part struck me as odd too. Objectivists always stress that all men need to live under the same code of morality if they're going to survive peacefully.

 

Maybe he means "the scientist won't be hampered by people who think what he's doing is immoral?"

[The Hamburglar]

I liked System Shock 2 better.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[Arby]

 

I never felt Ryan was a tyrant. Throughout the game, I always did feel like I was playing on the wrong side (until Fontaine came in, that is).

 

Ryan was never a "greater good" kind of guy. That's more Sophia Lamb. I don't remember Ryan murdering anyone; I haven't played this game in a long time, I could be wrong about that. What I do remember is that Ryan was quick to suppress any enemies of the state (and rightfully so) e.g. Julie Langford in Arcadia.

 

It has been a long time for me as well, so I don't have many examples on hand, but I remember many a corpse being left along with a log by Sullivan detailing the death of the party in question. The lady Sander Cohen had a rivalry with springs to mind, killing her was a favor, as does the wall of corpses outside Ryan's office. Remember the signs near your bathysphere demanding freedom, or people being corralled into Apollo Square at gunpoint?

 

I don't chiefly blame Ryan for what happened, but he was, indirectly, a murderer and his justification was the protection of his city from the parasites. There is an audio log I remembered as I'm typing this, found in the farmer's market--at the feet of a corpse hanging from a noose--I believe, where Ryan talks about making compromises to his code in order for the city to survive.

 

EDIT: I just reread your post. The elimination of political and ideological opponents by forceful means is another topic, for a longer discussion, but what could make you justify Langford's gassing? Her only crime was an extremely limited association with Fontaine, which only consisted of briefly speaking to Jack, and her death serves a clear example of Ryan's paranoia at that point. She wasn't even helping you, she only reacted when Ryan killed all the trees and cut off the air., before that she had years of valuable service to Ryan, creating Arcadia, selling oxygen, etc..., her death was obvious murder.

[Arby]

I did a bit of digging. I think this was the audio log I was thinking of:

 

"Doctor Suchong, frankly, I'm shocked by your proposal. If we were to modify the structure of our commercial Plasmid line as you propose, to have them make the user vulnerable to mental suggestion through pheromones, would we not be able to effectively control the actions of the citizens of Rapture? Free will is the cornerstone of this city. The thought of sacrificing it is abhorrent. However... we are indeed in a time of war. If Atlas and his bandits have their way, will they not turn us into slaves? And what will become of free will then? Desperate times call for desperate measures."

 

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Desperate_Times

 

here's another good one: http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Mistakes

[Arby]

Oh, and just to wrap things up, I love what Ryan was, what he did, and what he showed was possible, before his fall from grace.

 

I love Bioshock 2 more than the first because of thrusting the player into the role of a strong individual character who is rediscovering his humanity and identity whilst battling a clearly villianized Collectivist/Altruist on a personal mission to rescue the only person to ever matter to him, all the while showing the grander side of the once great Ryan while heightening his tragedy by showing how far he has come, on top of what I felt was much improved gameplay. the only flaw being the horrible, tacked on multiplayer put in by the marketing department.

 

that's my perspective on the Bioshock series so far, and I have great hopes for Infinite. Now back to the philosophical discourse.