THE GUI SHOULD BE BETTER

[BTGBullseye]

On 6/6/2021 at 11:49 AM, Kyle said:

I think with OLEDs on the way, dark interfaces should support blacker blacks instead of these dim greys. I also would like to see a way to have ui elements + lines move ever so slightly every hour to help against burn-in.

OLEDs are not the future of PC monitors though, Micro LED is. OLED is already on its way out on the top-end because of the low lifespan of the organic elements.

[Kyle]

On 6/10/2021 at 6:14 AM, BTGBullseye said:

OLEDs are not the future of PC monitors though, Micro LED is. OLED is already on its way out on the top-end because of the low lifespan of the organic elements.

I disagree with that, but let's call that off topic for now. Either way bleed-over into blacks is no longer an issue with good displays, so black/dark interfaces are going to become more common.

[BTGBullseye]

On 6/11/2021 at 3:46 PM, Kyle said:

I disagree with that

Disagree all you want, but that is the fact of the technology as it is progressing today. There is never going to be wide adoption of OLED for standard PC screens due to burn-in issues, but micro LED will last about 10x longer before burn-in. (I'm saying this as someone that has been dealing with this stuff for over 20 years)

On 6/11/2021 at 3:46 PM, Kyle said:

Either way bleed-over into blacks is no longer an issue with good displays, so black/dark interfaces are going to become more common.

They've been popular since before Windows ever existed... Only websites and Apple thought "eye-searing white on white" was a good color scheme.

[tungnos]

Hi Ross,

I've recently bumped into a bunch of great app that can help boost up your quest to live better with Windows, esp. Windows 10

- powertoy: give you a few tools in 1 app
  + fancyzone: predefined screen area for snapping
  + run: a search tool similar to Spotlight in MacOS
  + shortcut guide: no need to remember, just need to hold Win key for a moment, help you in shortcut hell
  + power rename: bulk rename

 

- files: a Windows app from MS Store, work dual pane, tabbed instance, exclusive to Windows 10 of course

- winDynamicDesktop: change desktop background with day/night effect

 

- startEverywhere: anywhere Start menu, similar to liteStep, less first-time setup

 

- taskbarGroup: taskbar shortcut grouping, similar to liteStep, a bit tedious setup for me

I saw your video when it was out and you've got me into the quest since. I am still working on the corner-click app start, maybe edge-click app start (it should give us 8 favorite apps in total)

 

---

A question about the system tray icon: how do you hide it away? Is it with liteStep or nexusDock?

 

I saw the Ultimate option from nexusDock for $20 or something but don't know if we have alternatives.

 

Personally I want to know background processes, but when I get 16-20 icons, it becomes overwhelming and I cannot decide if I can live without them. It would be nice to hide/open it like yours.

 

Screenshot: the powertoy Run and startEverywhere

 

[testman]

In the last video chat Ross said that he is interested in seeing if WSL2/WSLg (WSL from now on) can somehow be used to replace Windows shell with some Linux DE. So that he would have some Windows-Linux hybrid.

It probably isn't possible to use  WSL as a full shell replacement like with other Windows shell alternatives. But from what I see, it is possible to run and display some DE as it's own application, so visually it's similar to virtual machine or remote desktop.
As far as I know, WSL does allow running Windows programs from within the Linux environment. Not exactly sure how that is done and what kind of programs can be started. But it is there, and that makes WSL be much more fitting for creation of Windows-Linux hybrid than it would be say Linux running in VirtualBox using "seamless mode".

 

Even if it is possible to get some desktop environment running well, there is still an issue of getting Windows shell out of the way, making it use absolutely minimum amount of resources, and re-implement the functionality in WSL desktop environment.
There are many people with low-spec machines, so someone probably already stripped Windows 10 shell down to bare minimum, but there probably aren't many people who made WSL understand the full capabilities of the Windows host. Things like having XDG-Open point to Windows programs for relevant files and URLs, having shortcuts in Linux guest that open host's Control Panel or other settings, etc.

 

I think that this idea of Windows-Linux hybrid is interesting, and should be explored further.

Few relevant links that I found when doing a quick search about this topic:
https://github.com/NathanCastle/BootShellCredentialProvider (looks outdated and abandoned)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuERIEJJUA

https://github.com/microsoft/wslg
https://sourceforge.net/projects/vcxsrv/

Edited July 5, 2021 by testman (see edit history)

[Mow]

I know I am super late but I can help with a thing!
The copy past thing where it does not copy the text you have market? Not actually the GUI's fault. It is programs wanting to stop you copying their text, and so they do not create text objects, but basically makes super special versions so that copy paste does not know what it is holding, and thus cannot copy it. This is ALWAYS done on purpose because text is, like, the easiest to work with in programming.

It... more or less cannot be fixed, BUT I now use "Capture2Text" which gives me a shortcut to press, then mark the text in a drag box, and it uses the picture to generate the text. That works ALWAYS(although sometimes gets the text a little bit wrong). No matter what, and they cannot stop me!

The text is proprietary objects? Does not stop me
The text is not selectable? Does not stop me
The text is just a picture? SCREW YOU! DOES NOT STOP ME!

It is also a super lightweight program and works with nearly no delay(Which is my big GUI fetish... I hate all the bloat GUI's have these days. When I open a program or change a window I want it done NOW! Not 0.5 seconds from now. NOW!) and it leaves you alone when not using it.

http://capture2text.sourceforge.net/
 

[ygudik]

Hi all! I didn't have the time to read all 16 pages but I did see at least one person mentioned dwm. Just like Ross, I've been trying to better and optimize the GUI I use, up until I tried dwm. At that point I reached peak GUI and haven't really been trying since.

 

Or more exactly, I reached the peak of the OS GUI shell. More on that later. Dwm is presented to me as a thin strip at the top of the screen leaving almost the entire screen for the application I am working in. By default, the application gets the entire screen so you don't ever have to think about sizing your windows (but this can be toggled in case you need sizeable windows). It allocates a number of virtual screens and then I logically distribute my work on these screens. For example, screen 5 is email, screen 3 is the web browser, screen 4 is music & small things. To switch from screen to screen, I do "windows button + the number of the screen". I can do this with a single hand, so I don't have to release the mouse (I'm right-handed). The switches are instantaneous and I can immediately start to work.

 

To run programs, you use dmenu. It activates when you press "windows button + r" and it displays you in the top of the screen a simple list of programs you can run. Then you just go left-right until you have the one you want (you can also start typing and it will narrow the list), press enter and the program starts.

 

However I have a confession to make. To be efficient, the list of programs you can fit in dmenu is really short. In addition, this scheme only works as an application launcher. So, to enable me to do the rest, I use a command line terminal. A very long time ago I used to have a GUI file manager, but I got rid of it. This was almost certainly a bad idea because the state of my files has been degenerating ever since then. These days most of my files are strung all over the place and I probably don't need half of them.

So at the very least, you would want to augment the thing I described with a GUI file manager. I used Thunar back in the day (circa 2009).

Now, I did previously mention the OS GUI shell. In his video, Ross talked about that but he didn't really talk about the thing where GUI really does get used: application programs. Perhaps they could be made better by forcing (?) or allowing the application to use a GUI framework given by the OS so the OS could intelligently customize the applications GUI components. I'm shooting in the dark, application GUIs are hard. And then there are the web pages. :O

I added two screenshots from way back in the day. I'm kind of flexing in one of them, sorry about that. xD

[gnarlin]

Fly-Pie is a Gnome extension that is very similar to what Ross mentioned in the video. The Distrotube youtube channel has a video about it:

 

Here is the github page:

https://github.com/Schneegans/Fly-Pie

 

Note: It's only compatible with Gnome version 40 or higher and since it's a Gnome extension it means that you have to use Gnome to use it.

Edited September 28, 2021 by gnarlin (see edit history)

[BTGBullseye]

 

I get the feeling that a lot of you think that the UI you want would need less explaining, but would actually need WAY more.

[gnarlin]

Has anyone ever heard of...... a zui (zoom user interface)? This blew my mind!

 

[Toggle]

I know this pain all too well.

[artsbxc]

Voice command integrations plus eye tracking

 

(the eye tracking part will probably require some complex, highly sensitive electromagnetic engineering)

Edited January 11, 2022 by artsbxc (see edit history)

[ScumCoder]

On 7/21/2020 at 5:19 PM, POINTS: said:

Ideal setup:

• OS: Arch Linux.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist

[callybug]

How did Ross disable Nexus to bring up the dock with the mouse? I've been enjoying using an extra mouse button and AutoHotkey to bring up the icons so they're not in the way. But still no matter what Nexus settings I try, if the mouse touches the edge of the screen, the dock comes up (even if I have the activation set to a hotkey).

 

For a good GUI the keyboard and mouse will have to change, even if only slightly. The keyboard as it currently stands isn't designed for GUIs, it's still in the IBM days. I would like to see the end of the top bar with the close/minimise/maximise buttons, so every program looks full-screen by default. Then the close/minimise/maximise buttons can physically go on the keyboard (instead of uncomfortable Windows key/Alt+F4 nonsense). They'd go on the left side 'cause it'd be easier for the keyboard hand to reach.

Maybe the close button could even be a momentary switch (like the Atari VCS reset switch or iPhone "unlock"). You'd have to make a specific and deliberate (yet still imprecise and quick!) effort to close the program.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by callybug (see edit history)

[Hammster]

Hi there, i've maybe found a way to improve the situation with windows.

I'm currently using WSL to run Linux on Windows and i also run a X server on Windows (basically as the UI layer), so this allows me to have my Windows 10/11 or whatever comes and don't give a crap about that. I only need to have my x server + WSL in autostart. Then in Linux i can run whatever Window Manger / GUI i want.

But there are still challenges

- Starting windows application (which you can from WSL) and have then in a window in a linux frame (doesn't work (?)).
- Keeping that X window in the background at all times (Apparently there is no "always behind" concept anywhere)
- More stuff i've not encountered yet

Outside of that i've found a few very nice ideas in regard to how windows can be handles

For one HaikuOS is interesting https://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/gui.html especially the way you snap windows into groups, and the way you can dock contents of windows into the desktop.

But sadly HaikuOS has not enough software, and so on, so this brings me to my quest for finding the alternative to the UX they provide. And there are two Groupy on windows, though it's not really the same and appears to me like a hack. And this brings me to https://github.com/phillbush/shod and also https://github.com/phillbush/pmenu by the same guy, he also made other things i really liked.

Generally i think there is a lot of potential in mix and match here from Linux on Windows but well that's a ongoing quest, just wanted to share my findings so far.

Cheers

Also a example of shod (with the most basic theme)

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Hammster
added image (see edit history)

[An_aspiring_mushroom]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:39 PM, gnarlin said:

Fly-Pie is a Gnome extension that is very similar to what Ross mentioned in the video. The Distrotube youtube channel has a video about it:

 

Here is the github page:

https://github.com/Schneegans/Fly-Pie

 

Note: It's only compatible with Gnome version 40 or higher and since it's a Gnome extension it means that you have to use Gnome to use it.

 

It's pretty neat, but it should be startable by mmb or mouse side buttons by default, really. Keyboard shortcuts make 0 sense for this

[Sewblon]

I agree with your criticisms of Windows. But breaking up Microsoft would not have solved the problem. That would have just created one company that makes Office and another company that makes Windows. So one company would still have a monopoly on desktop operating systems and GUIs for desktop operating systems by extension.

[testman]

Is there anything new in this area?
Have any new GUI concepts been shown?
Any progress on any of the other relevant projects?

[ConcreteKisses]

Hi!! This video has been sitting in the back of my mind for nearly 3 years now, and has honestly developed into a quiet obsession and a deep frustration. I've slowly grown to loathe not just the GUI, but also the lack of development for peripherals, that the keyboard, mouse, and touchscreen have become the only media which to create.

 

So I'd like to show some of the stuff that I picked up over time, mainly because I'm not knowledgeable enough to tackle these problems yet, and I know someone on here is.

 

The Mother of All Demos (Douglas Engelbart and the developers at the Augmentation Research Center)

I know there's a good chunk of people here that have seen this, but I don't want to risk not leaving this in. Engelbart's vision has been incredibly fundamental to the field of personal computing, with the above demo featuring windows, hypertext, and collaborative screen sharing programs. In 1968.

 

Personally, the fact that his work has been reduced to the mouse is tragic. The mouse is wonderful, absolutely! But the other things he and his team built have been diminished to fit within systems that haven't changed since 1995.

 

Hypertext has been funneled into the fickle, impenetrable language that is HTML. The mouse, as wonderful as it is, hasn't changed much in design, with the programs that are built for it requiring unreasonable accuracy to simply navigate. Priming your hand for use is clumsy too, which I think is a very fundamental part of why switching between typing and mousing is so awkward.

 

Also I'm furious that the chord-based keyboard never caught on. It's such a wonderful idea compared to the mess that is hotkeys.

 

Here are some other bits and bobs that I've found to be deeply valuable, and have given me hope. It's a short list, as I've only scratched the surface.

http://worrydream.com/ - Bret Victor has made some wonderful articles about interaction design. (My Favorites: A Brief Rant, The Future of Programming, The Humane Representation of Thought)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7yLL5fJxT4 - ViHart's "1 Year of VR Research" is incredibly inspiring, though I wish this wasn't constrained to pairs of goggles and sticks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvmTSpJU-Xc - Alan Kay's "Normal Considered Harmful", while I have some reservations with it's statements on file size and computation, did genuinely confront and challenge me.

 

There are other things that I've been delving into that aren't listed here, but they're more oriented to education, information design, and play. Thank you for dealing with my rant.

[Isaiah]

On 4/22/2023 at 1:38 PM, ConcreteKisses said:

This video has been sitting in the back of my mind for nearly 3 years now, and has honestly developed into a quiet obsession and a deep frustration. I've slowly grown to loathe not just the GUI, but also the lack of development for peripherals

Ross's video greatly inspired me to develop some novel software and hardware concepts that I think could really help fulfill his vision. But sadly I found trying to work with him too problematic, which really demoralized me. So I shelved the concepts some time ago. I do intend to revisit them eventually, but I'd rather work on other things for now, as the current GUI is "good enough" for me.

There are also a lot of major obstacles to making progress in this area. Such as the dominating status quo, learning curves, on-boarding, adaptation, funding, investments, patents, resistance to change, etc. etc. that will take years to overcome... if ever. So it can all be quite intimidating.

I think the crux of the issue for Ross personally is he has a very strong imagination but little technical skill/understanding. So he can imagine there must be a better GUI just waiting to be created, but has no idea how to make it happen himself. Which must be pure torture and can probably drive a person insane! So I think it's best to try and not get too obsessed with what theoretically could be, and just keep chipping away at making things better where you can.