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Ross Scott

Ross Scott

Christ, I can't even use my own forums formatting properly.  I tried using the quote tags and everything went to hell, so please excuse the awkward formatting instead:

 

jacquie48th There's a utility that's similar to that called waifu2x.

Althought it was made originially for anime-style images, it should also work for photos.

I'll give it a shot sometime, thanks.

 

Im_CIA:  Many people don't use computers for "work", and those who do, use excel. For software developers/engineers (computers ARE work), hostile GUIs don't pose as big of problem since most of the time they work in a specific scope that can be fine-tuned. True power users are a dying breed.

 Yeah, for me, computers are a means to an end.  I'm willing to put the time in to get it working how I want to, but then I want to not have to deal with that again for years at a time if I can.

 

Also, your desktop is a perfect example of the problem I notice visually with a lot of themes.  Your terminal windows look pretty slick, dark theme, but readable colors, looking nice.  Then BAM your web page is bright as hell in comparison and just overpowers the rest of it.  My solution was to go for something in between, but maybe forcing everything to be dark on the web with plugins could work too.

 

hj You, Ross, yourself, complained about "learning all the hotkeys", the very same principle applies to mouse gestures, learning how to use console et cetera. 

It's a fair point about me complaining about learning the hotkeys, that maybe was a cheapshot on my part, however it's ALSO coupled with that not being an ergonomically great system.  So we're talking about memorization, but it ALSO not feeling great once it's memorized!

 

hj Windows 8 wasn't hated because it was slower or because it has tablet interface, biggest reason was because they drastically changed things there. 

This is true, HOWEVER, Metro ALSO LITERALLY COULD NOT DO ALL THE FUNCTIONS the regular UI could!  I don't think there was a Metro version of device manager, for example.  So even if you liked it, it was OBJECTIVELY NOT AS FUNCTIONAL.  It was like my example in the video where I tried to change the resolution in a VM using the GUI and it was LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.  No wonder those users prefer the CLI then!  If I hand you a new interface, but then it can only do 60% of what your old one did, of course you're going to hate it.  It's the same story with Windows 8.

It's true the public fights change.  However, if something is far and away BETTER, then a lot of people can end up coming around over time.  For example, I don't see a lot of people going back to typewriters over computers these days.  Regardless, it's possible to have OPTIONS, so the people who do want change can have it, while the holdouts can keep using what they're used to.  Don't hand me false dichotomies man, I get enough of that from Microsoft.

 

hj However if we really focus on efficiency and forgo the "easy to understand" and other things, I'm afraid we'll have to also forget the mouse.  

I'm not saying the mouse is great, but for some things, the keyboard is WORSE.  I tried to point out some examples in that video, how would you rapidly select specific files from a line-up like I did in the video with just the keyboard?  How about rapidly changing DOSBOX profile settings on-the-fly (not preconfigured)?  I mean if you explain in detail how that is JUST AS  FAST with the keyboard with the right interface I'll listen, but I have a suspicion it's that some people want work things to work one way, so they'll forgo other methods when that doesn't fit the mold.

 

As for the look, I like a lot of elements of old-school Linux themes, but they could use some modernizing.  I'm not thrilled about flat with lots of black and / or white.

 

testman We need a central knowledgebase for everything related to the GUI Quest™.
A place for proposed ideas, design guidelines for existing interfaces, links to experimental interfaces, list of abandoned concepts, etc.

Someone on Reddit made a repo that I assume will be used for this purpose. https://github.com/HawaiinPizza/Ross-Good-Gui

By all means, the forums here were just my  stab at bringing order to chaos.  I can maybe migrate things to that later.

 

NightNord But honestly I don't think a lot of people really care.

Hence the reason I couldn't stop my urge to create an hour-long quixotic video on the subject.  

 

danm36 For Ross's comment about the Windows shell being embedded so far in the OS that it's a pain to mess around with/replace, there's some good-ish news. Microsoft have apparently finally decided to separate the Windows shell from the OS layer, which should hopefully mean that shell replacements become much easier to implement in the future. Their main reasoning is so that they can push out shell updates without needing a full OS update, but dummying it out and replacing it with a custom shell should become trivial. How long this will take though... that's yet to be seen. As a Windows developer myself, the shell is pretty deeply nestled in there. 

That's fantastic news, I'm glad I made the video when I did then, so I didn't have to throw out a whole chunk of what I was going to say.  I look forward to some of the video becoming obsolete.

 

AtomicPurple If I use a GUI interface for the same tool, I have to click to open the program, click the open directory button, then click a bunch of times to navigate to the directory I already had open, and THEN I can start converting.

I really don't think it's an either / or thing.  Even though I showed a couple examples in the video where I think the GUI is faster, I still don't think it's GOOD there.  Organzing files isn't particular pleasant at all on the mouse and keyboard, I see losing the mouse part of the equation not making it much nicer for me, I think we just need better software there to be honest.

 

FixesComputers Now comes the opinion: Don't. Just...don't.

Duly noted!


Yllia Yeah I think the motion tracking gloves + keyboard are the "everybody wins" solution for getting away from mouse switching.  
I tend to be more visually oriented and I actually think the GUI

 

LochNessMobster AR is one of those things I could see evolving to the Iron Man level over many years, or it may sputter out.  I'm not waiting for that, I can be happier with more primitive means, but not what Windows is handing me.  Also, you may find this interesting:
https://www.pcgamer.com/this-8k-holographic-monitor-has-me-dreaming-about-the-future-of-gaming/

 

FuzzyCandle Yeah, you're beyond my level, I'm just at a point where I can see the potential of haptic controls.  A problem that's unlikely to change for decades though (maybe ever) is software isn't going to be designed for it, so we'll have to focus on motion controls as a translation layer for more conventional interfaces for programs.  By all means, figure out how things should work though.  It's really not even a joke talking about us having to develop a martial arts style to interact with a more advanced GUI.

Ross Scott

Ross Scott

Christ, I can't even use my own forums formatting properly.  I tried using the quote tags and everything went to hell, so please excuse the awkward formatting instead:

 

jacquie48th There's a utility that's similar to that called waifu2x.

Althought it was made originially for anime-style images, it should also work for photos.

I'll give it a shot sometime, thanks.

 

Im_CIA:  Many people don't use computers for "work", and those who do, use excel. For software developers/engineers (computers ARE work), hostile GUIs don't pose as big of problem since most of the time they work in a specific scope that can be fine-tuned. True power users are a dying breed.

 Yeah, for me, computers are a means to an end.  I'm willing to put the time in to get it working how I want to, but then I want to not have to deal with that again for years at a time if I can.

 

Also, your desktop is a perfect example of the problem I notice visually with a lot of themes.  Your terminal windows look pretty slick, dark theme, but readable colors, looking nice.  Then BAM your web page is bright as hell in comparison and just overpowers the rest of it.  My solution was to go for something in between, but maybe forcing everything to be dark on the web with plugins could work too.

 

 

hj You, Ross, yourself, complained about "learning all the hotkeys", the very same principle applies to mouse gestures, learning how to use console et cetera. 

It's a fair point about me complaining about learning the hotkeys, that maybe was a cheapshot on my part, however it's ALSO coupled with that not being an ergonomically great system.  So we're talking about memorization, but it ALSO not feeling great once it's memorized!

 

hj Windows 8 wasn't hated because it was slower or because it has tablet interface, biggest reason was because they drastically changed things there. 

This is true, HOWEVER, Metro ALSO LITERALLY COULD NOT DO ALL THE FUNCTIONS the regular UI could!  I don't think there was a Metro version of device manager, for example.  So even if you liked it, it was OBJECTIVELY NOT AS FUNCTIONAL.  It was like my example in the video where I tried to change the resolution in a VM using the GUI and it was LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.  No wonder those users prefer the CLI then!  If I hand you a new interface, but then it can only do 60% of what your old one did, of course you're going to hate it.  It's the same story with Windows 8.

It's true the public fights change.  However, if something is far and away BETTER, then a lot of people can end up coming around over time.  For example, I don't see a lot of people going back to typewriters over computers these days.  Regardless, it's possible to have OPTIONS, so the people who do want change can have it, while the holdouts can keep using what they're used to.  Don't hand me false dichotomies man, I get enough of that from Microsoft.

 

hj However if we really focus on efficiency and forgo the "easy to understand" and other things, I'm afraid we'll have to also forget the mouse.  

I'm not saying the mouse is great, but for some things, the keyboard is WORSE.  I tried to point out some examples in that video, how would you rapidly select specific files from a line-up like I did in the video with just the keyboard?  How about rapidly changing DOSBOX profile settings on-the-fly (not preconfigured)?  I mean if you explain in detail how that is JUST AS  FAST with the keyboard with the right interface I'll listen, but I have a suspicion it's that some people want work things to work one way, so they'll forgo other methods when that doesn't fit the mold.

 

As for the look, I like a lot of elements of old-school Linux themes, but they could use some modernizing.  I'm not thrilled about flat with lots of black and / or white.

 

testman We need a central knowledgebase for everything related to the GUI Quest™.
A place for proposed ideas, design guidelines for existing interfaces, links to experimental interfaces, list of abandoned concepts, etc.

Someone on Reddit made a repo that I assume will be used for this purpose. https://github.com/HawaiinPizza/Ross-Good-Gui

By all means, the forums here were just my  stab at bringing order to chaos.  I can maybe migrate things to that later.

 

NightNord But honestly I don't think a lot of people really care.

Hence the reason I couldn't stop my urge to create an hour-long quixotic video on the subject.  

 

danm36 For Ross's comment about the Windows shell being embedded so far in the OS that it's a pain to mess around with/replace, there's some good-ish news. Microsoft have apparently finally decided to separate the Windows shell from the OS layer, which should hopefully mean that shell replacements become much easier to implement in the future. Their main reasoning is so that they can push out shell updates without needing a full OS update, but dummying it out and replacing it with a custom shell should become trivial. How long this will take though... that's yet to be seen. As a Windows developer myself, the shell is pretty deeply nestled in there. 

That's fantastic news, I'm glad I made the video when I did then, so I didn't have to throw out a whole chunk of what I was going to say.  I look forward to some of the video becoming obsolete.

 

AtomicPurple If I use a GUI interface for the same tool, I have to click to open the program, click the open directory button, then click a bunch of times to navigate to the directory I already had open, and THEN I can start converting.

I really don't think it's an either / or thing.  Even though I showed a couple examples in the video where I think the GUI is faster, I still don't think it's GOOD there.  Organzing files isn't particular pleasant at all on the mouse and keyboard, I see losing the mouse part of the equation not making it much nicer for me, I think we just need better software there to be honest.

 

FixesComputers Now comes the opinion: Don't. Just...don't.

Duly noted!


Yllia Yeah I think the motion tracking gloves + keyboard are the "everybody wins" solution for getting away from mouse switching.  
I tend to be more visually oriented and I actually think the GUI

 

LochNessMobster AR is one of those things I could see evolving to the Iron Man level over many years, or it may sputter out.  I'm not waiting for that, I can be happier with more primitive means, but not what Windows is handing me.  Also, you may find this interesting:
https://www.pcgamer.com/this-8k-holographic-monitor-has-me-dreaming-about-the-future-of-gaming/

 

FuzzyCandle Yeah, you're beyond my level, I'm just at a point where I can see the potential of haptic controls.  A problem that's unlikely to change for decades though (maybe ever) is software isn't going to be designed for it, so we'll have to focus on motion controls as a translation layer for more conventional interfaces for programs.  By all means, figure out how things should work though.  It's really not even a joke talking about us having to develop a martial arts style to interact with a more advanced GUI.

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