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[Scorpia]

Shh! we want them to believe we can! why'd you have to miss that meeting?

[Alyxx Thorne]

You could say I had my hands full at the moment.

[Scorpia]

Well, yes, your carnal obligations are far more important then making the forum believe we can do anything for no reason, but try to at least contact one of us to copy our notes...

[Alyxx Thorne]

You'd know all about my carnal obligations, that's for sure.

[Scorpia]

Only a few things!

 

@everyone in the group: if one of you makes a "seems legit" remark i'll dive out that first story window!

[Alyxx Thorne]

About as legit as my boobs.

[Chuckthe2nd]

I'll dive out that first story window!

Seems legit.

[Alyxx Thorne]

I'll dive out that first story window!

Seems legit.

L0ag9Sll6RI

[Arby]

I'll dive out that first story window!

Seems legit.

lTO4e7UfarU

[Pinkie Pie]

I'll gladly push Bill out the window.

[Dr. Derpy Hooves Ph.D]

I'll gladly push buck Bill out the window.

[Srake]

Ponies can push, Username.

[Bravetriforcer]

Ponies can push, Username.

 

They can also pull a carriage.

[Pinkie Pie]

ponies can do lots of things

Like push things

and pull things

ponies can do something else

and I dont know what

[Bravetriforcer]

 

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/supplydepot/

10:05 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): if I'm correct, thats pretty much exactly what Extra Credits said SHOULD happen

10:05 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Color-Coded ending choices?

10:05 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: (Herp-derp, MAss Effect 3 joke)

10:05 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): browser games that relate to real games

10:05 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I'd like them

10:06 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: But I'm sure there are change-fearers who say it'd ruin gaming

10:06 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): eeyup

10:07 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: So are you interestewd in Bioshock Infinite?

10:08 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): http://images.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/rsz/mlfw373_large.jpg

10:08 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): that took longer than I hoped

10:08 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): and it doens't do a good job

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Because it feels like I'm the only guy who isn't

10:09 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC):

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And it's largely for game-based idelogical reasons

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Specifically

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Two-Weapon Swap

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Fuck

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Fuckity

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Fucking

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Really

10:09 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): wait

10:09 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): wait

10:09 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): wait

10:09 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): what

10:09 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: That extended gameplay demo showed that Booke can hold limited weapons

10:10 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): :C

10:10 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): FUUUUUUUU

10:10 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And I simply said "No"

10:10 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: No

10:10 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): why do games think they need to do that?

10:10 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I am not going to allow this to happen

10:10 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): is it for fake realism?

10:10 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Change the weapon system, by all means

10:10 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): is it to simplify consoles?

10:10 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Most likely

10:10 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): why?

10:10 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): WHYYYYYYY

10:11 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: If they feel the radial menu isn't working to their needs, they have the right to change it

10:11 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: But fucking CoD style weapon swap

10:11 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: + Regenerating health

10:11 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: At least that one isn't completely like the usual

10:11 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Only a juge chunk of the health bar regens

10:11 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): for real? They're going full DNF?

10:11 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: The few small pips leftover need to be health-packed/new-leveled

10:12 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): so kind of like the inverse of AC?

10:12 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: YEs

10:12 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Except now it's terrible

10:13 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=attvYJb6xn8

10:13 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Somehwere near the end

10:14 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Like when the big fight breaks out and the airship happens

10:14 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Or wait no

10:15 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Wait

10:15 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Yeah I had the health system right

10:15 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): 9:35

10:15 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Big bar comes back on its own

10:15 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I hate how he waits so long to reload sometimes

10:16 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Yep

10:16 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Two weapons

10:16 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): Well, I never thought the game would live up to the original anyway, so I'm willing to take this

10:17 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): and at the same time I trust that they will do a good job

10:17 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I just can't accept a huge step back like this

10:17 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): honestly the first one felt like you had too many weapons at times

10:17 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I mean couldn't they have at least tried something unique

10:17 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): "huge step back"

10:17 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): really man?

10:17 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Yes

10:17 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: You saw DNF

10:17 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): yes, it sucked

10:18 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Also, obvious God-Mode is obvious

10:18 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I still think you're overreacting

10:18 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): and I never had a problem with regenerating health

10:18 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I liked and respected both types

10:19 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I just wish they could have tried something other than the played out "Two-weapons of any kind." Shtick

10:20 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I know Gears of War had a bit of a different take

10:20 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): where you always had 2 normal weaposn and one pistol

10:20 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I never got that with this system

10:20 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Are they saying he can't have a holster to keep the pistol with?

10:20 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Hell, that'd be nice

10:21 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: The normal two weapon swap + swapping out your pistols

10:22 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I think you just hate weapon swap systems because it ruined DNF

10:22 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Nope

10:22 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): whose to say it'll do the same to other series

10:22 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Have hated it from the start

10:22 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Since CoD, since Halo

10:22 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Since anytime I've ever seen it

10:22 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Except maybe Left 4 Dead

10:23 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And I'm indifferent about Tribes'

10:23 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: BEcause that's multiplayer only

10:24 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Where a 2-weapon swap is a fair decision for balance reasons

10:24 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): one of the main problems with weapon swaps is its one of the ways to cheapen play

10:24 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And really, answer me this

10:24 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): like Skinner boxes or levelling

10:24 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): it makes you make decisions

10:24 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): ones that aren't as important as it makes you think

10:25 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Name 3 FPS' that you feel would have been greatly improved by changing their weapon systems to the two-weapon swap

10:25 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And really, the decision can't be important

10:25 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I'm trying to remember any

10:25 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): class based games ae out the window

10:26 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Now think of any FPS that does use it, and name a way its weapon system could have been improved to make the gameplay more interesting

10:26 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Not necessarily into "All weapons in a wheel", but any kind of change

10:26 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And when I played Darkness II's demo, they actually put a neat spin on the idea

10:27 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Two guns only, but you have the Darkness to fight with and can dual-wield ANY two guns

10:27 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: The Darkness itself has a lot of abilities and upgrades that you can apply to it that can make the combat much more visceral

10:28 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And again, ANY two guns

10:28 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: As long as it isn't the long-barrell shotgun

10:28 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): see, you say that about the darkness

10:28 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): how you can have different weapons but standard powers

10:28 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): btu then you hate it when Tribes does it

10:28 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: I said indifferent

10:28 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Because it's multiplayer only, they can justify using the system

10:30 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): See, having the right weapon system is all about how different the weapons are

10:31 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): if you have a weapon wheel with similar weapons, then there really isn't any point to it

10:31 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): but if you have weapon swaps with radically different weapons, it could cost you

10:31 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): so to have a weapon wheel you would want lots of variety of not only weapons but occasions to use them

10:32 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): in weapon swap games you would want long periods of certain types with minor varieties between them

10:32 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): so that the player wouldn't suffer much remorse

10:32 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: "It would cost you.", yeah, until you realize you picked the wrong gun, then walk over to get the gun the devs really, really, wanted you to have at this specific shootout

10:32 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): which is bad design on the designers part

10:33 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): not much different than looking for ammo

10:33 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: And how most games that use the system work

10:33 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): the problem with comparting these systems is that there is no downside to weapon wheels

10:33 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): *comparing

10:34 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: What do you mean by no downside

10:34 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): in that you never have to drop a weapon or give anythign up

10:34 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): *anything

10:34 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): which is the definition of weapon swapping

10:35 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: But all you're giving up is a gun that chances are you're going to find a few rooms later anyway

10:35 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): its all about those decisions

10:35 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Those fake decisions

10:35 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): in most cases yes

10:35 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Those "decisions" that are really the devs forcing you to play a certain way for this shootout

10:35 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Or at least really, really hinting at how thye want you to

10:36 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): see, you're assuming all these designers suck

10:36 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Well then name an aexample of how a good designer uses two-weapon swap and I'll work from there

10:36 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: As in, name a game

10:36 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I never thought that the makers of Halo were forcing me to use certain weapon type

10:37 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): unless it was like you were shooting down a plane or shooting long distance

10:37 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): in which you'd have to use the same weapons in a weapon wheel anyway

10:37 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Yes, but it's the freedom of the weapon wheel that I'm arguing for

10:38 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Because a two-weapon swap is there either to accommodate consoles, or because the dev prefers you play more to their liking

10:38 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): think about it this way then

10:38 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): why do you hate regen health?

10:38 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: It dumbs down the combat

10:38 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): why is it okay for devs to make youn look for med packs but not weapons?

10:39 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Because health is an absolute necessity to winning the game

10:39 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: A crawl around enemies to get a health pack so I have a chance of winning is a more exciting experience than picking up the convenient weapon of the section

10:40 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): but being unprepared for a combat in any way should basically have the same effect

10:40 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): whether its because you don't have health or you don't have the right weapons

10:40 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: But generally

10:40 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: A good designed is goign to have "The right weapon" within easy grabbing distance of the section

10:40 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: So that it's feasible you win

10:41 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: *designer

10:41 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): in the same way they'll have the med pack in the back

10:41 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): that you ahve to use strategically

10:41 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): *have

10:41 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: But there is no strategy to "Pick up the gun the devs want me to pick up"

10:43 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I stopped having fun with his arguement half an hour ago, and I can tell that I'm losing because I completely agree with everything you say

10:43 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): so I'm just going to stop now

10:43 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: VICTORY

10:43 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: WOOTWOOTWOOTWOOTWOOT

10:44 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: It sucks being the devil's advocate, huh?

10:44 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I just don't think anyone should ever completely disregard something that is successful

10:44 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): yes

10:44 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): but at least usually i like it

10:44 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): but it got difficult fast

10:44 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): I thought I had something with the health

10:45 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: As that one Hunter from FotW woudl say :Nopenopenopenopenopenopenoepnope

10:45 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: *would

10:45 PM - Mr. Shiny Object (UC): and I didn't bring up that there was one game that did it well

10:45 PM - »LB« Bravetriforcer |LAB|: Mm-hmm

 

 

Posted for posterity.

[Mr. ShinyObject]

I bet you wouldn't have posted that if I would have won it. And I tried my best. Like I said, I don't believe that any system is completely bad if it has been successful.

 

And why did you pick on of our chats that I couldn't spell. And why did you leave the portion about the supple depot thing. And why are you posting it at all.

 

Anyway, here is a gif that I wanted to share so badly that l I came here during work.

 

 

[Blightmare]

The way I see it, there is no problem with the weapon swap system, only the way it's utilized. The weapon wheel can be just as flawed as the 2 swap if the game makes it easy to horde ammo for these weapons. too many games that have used weapon wheels, even on harder difficulties, I've found myself capable of stocking up on ammo making parts of games that I personally feel could have been a challenging experience lot easier and ultimately ruining the experience. (first Red Faction being a nice example. Also the old Medal of Honor's. At least the first for sure.)

 

And as much as I like the weapon wheel, I do have to view it as a bit of a crutch. It prevents the need of worrying which weapon would be best keeping for future parts of the game. I also personally see "dev's forcing you to play to their style" a rather weak argument. I see it more as a method of requiring the player to diversify his play style and adapt to a situation. Aka, countering the faceroll. If you want to look at that as being forced, then go ahead. I prefer that method to "Here's an array of guns you can use any time without ever having to worry about starting a fight with the wrong weapons. Have fun."

 

Positive examples of weapon swap:

Gears of War: I've tried to see this game were I to carry any weapon I find. Didn't like what came to mind. It's far too built around your 2 weapons to be any good any other way

F.E.A.R.(first one): There is some OP shit in this game. if you were allowed to carry around everything, the game wouldn't even really be a game. just a man rolling his head on the keyboard until the credits roll.

 

Positive Examples of weapon wheel:

Half Life: Yeah, of course I'm gonna choose that here. totally not fanboyed. Nah but seriously. You pick up a weapon, you have it for good. What makes it better is that eventually certain weapons become obsolete and non ideal to use. take HL2: by late game, if you're still using the pistol and reg smg as your primaries, then you're gonna have one hell of a time. the weapons get stronger while the enemies get tougher to maintain a balanced playing field. And should you WANT the challenge yourself, by all means, pull out that pistol!

 

 

Sorry, just felt this needed a strong counter argument.

 

TL:DR:

 

In the end it's really how it's utilized. You cannot bash the system as a whole, as there's always a way to make something work. The way I see it, if the gameplay wasn't built to accommodate the weapon system, you've got yourself a problem.

[Bravetriforcer]

[Axeldeath]

Take DNF though, it may as well have had a weapon wheel because they give you the exact weapon you need for each encounter. Almost all games just have it in to accommodate consoles and because it's popular.

[Blightmare]

And that's called utilizing it wrong. Doesn't make it as a whole wrong.