ROSS'S GAME DUNGEON: DEUS EX - HUMAN REVOLUTION

[ScumCoder]

the review even started with a snippet of dialogue that is more insane than anything in human revolution - and that snippet is not rare.

I believe you do understand that that's a snippet from a DE mod which was made to ridicule DEHR?

[Aquinas]

Well, now I do, cheers

[ScumCoder]

I'm just telling Ross as someone whose donated to him, not a huge amount but some, that there's at least one person who has given him money who doesn't like the direction he seems to be headed.

If you think that your petty $5 give you right to tell Ross what to do, you are in for a rude awakening.

 

Oh, and he several times explicitly said that he would rather go dig ditches and eat newspapers, but tell what he considers true.

[ScumCoder]

Well, now I do, cheers

If you didn't even notice that the intro snippet looks nothing like Deus Ex, it means that you basically didn't play it (beyond Liberty Island, maybe). And you still consider yourself entitled to bash on this game's dialogues?

[Ross Scott]

It's his channel so Ross can say whatever he likes on it and if you don't like it maybe you should go somewhere else.

Hey, this is not my attitude at all. I'm totally fine with civil discourse. As long as everyone can act like mature and reasonable people, I'm fine with whatever people want to say about my videos. I thought daisekihan maybe misinterpreted some of what I was getting at, but he's not trying to antagonize me, he's expressing legitimate disappointments he had.

 

 

Well if your not the AAA video games industry's general audience then yes, for the past 10 years most games have been nothing but mediocre garbage and it's pretty clear that Ross thinks this way. If you look at his Top 25 Most Anticipated Games! video all the games he's interested in are from indies because like me he has lost all hope in the AAA video games industry getting better.

It's not quite that simple. I don't have a lot of faith in AAA titles producing much with great writing, but they can still make great games too. The bottom line is the simpler the concept (like a racing or fighting game), the more faith I have in the AAA industry having the potential being able to produce something good. The more complex it gets, the more my skepticism can rise, but I don't assume anything is going to be bad necessarily. The only thing I absolutely hate about some modern AAA games is the increased reliance on central servers. It's going to kill a lot of games, which I think is the worst thing I can imagine for the games industry.

 

 

To be fair, the riots were more due to people freaking out that the thought of augmented super soldiers basically instating martial law, since they only happened after a Picus fueled media-frenzy about "leaked" satellite footage of said super-soldiers.

Plus, you know, rioters gotta riot. And, as always, it started as a peaceful protest.

I could have missed it, but we should have gotten the augmented equivalent of a Rodney King beating video if that was the case, something that the average person could see and it's obvious to see how controversy could break out.

 

I love the original, but the review even started with a snippet of dialogue that is more insane than anything in human revolution - and that snippet is not rare.

If you've ever talked to homeless people in the park, I think you would find that there was nothing unrealistic about that snippet.

 

As someone who has served in the army, I can say it's probably true - talks tend to focus around sports, sex, and the commanders' bullshit orders as they come - but after some time doing patrols with someone, you talk more and more about things like "what the hell am I doing here, guarding this piece of desert?" and there's always some guy that's eager to talk about the bible once we've exhausted all other topics. So yes, it can be lead to some philosophical conversations!

One of my favorite conversations in DX is the veteran and the old bum just shooting the shit, talking about his past service and the military making dumb decisions that are biting them in the ass now, it felt so natural. That's one thing DX had is some more variety. Not everyone is going to be concerned about whatever the plot is. Some people are hungry, some people are just clowning around, some people are worried about their neighbors, etc. Stuff like that makes the world seem real.

[Aquinas]

Well, now I do, cheers

If you didn't even notice that the intro snippet looks nothing like Deus Ex, it means that you basically didn't play it (beyond Liberty Island, maybe). And you still consider yourself entitled to bash on this game's dialogues?

 

That's harsh. I have played the original through to completion more than a half dozen times. I'd say if I didn't notice that snippet wasn't in the game that REINFORCES my point: it looked so much like so much of the dialog in DX that I didn't notice it wasn't.

[John]

I'll be perfectly honest and say while I'm very glad that these episodes were made as they provided an interesting window into the series I hadn't quite thought of before the sheer amount of effort and time that obviously went into this project makes me partially question if it shouldn't have gone towards the movie. Of course from the sounds that's nothing you don't already know. Again I'd never say that now we have it I'd want it not to have been a thing, because it got me thinking about oil again, and how I really need to get that whole socio-economical collapse survival plan wormed through the works.

 

As someone who played well two of the three games here, but didn't exactly keep up with the communities at all I can honestly say with most of these it hadn't really occurred to me. I mean even the fact Human Revolution was a prequel was lost on me as someone who is a bit thick when it comes down to the wire. I honestly just thought it was a semi competent sequel to the series which was sort of full of its own koolaid.

 

Was given a copy first week of the game coming out, got to right after that first boss and then just sort of petered out as far as interest goes in trying to slog through to the end.

 

Also: I'm really loving this back and fourth in this thread, I've always had a good bit of fun setting back and reading this place lurking in the shadows but this was the first time I REALLY wanted to get involved with the conversation before realizing there are more qualified people for the job then me.

[throttledan]

The song playing while demonstrating the takedown moves is the same as the opening intro to the original Quake-based Team Fortress. I don't know if that's what Ross was referencing but it took me back!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FVJ__rBFxk

[Heliocentrical]

It's not quite that simple. I don't have a lot of faith in AAA titles producing much with great writing, but they can still make great games too. The bottom line is the simpler the concept (like a racing or fighting game), the more faith I have in the AAA industry having the potential being able to produce something good.

Yes exactly, they should just stick to making games with solid mechanics and polish them to a mirror shine as that is their strong suit. I would much rather have a game with good mechanics with practically no story then a half-assed RPG that tries to do everything and fails miserably. I hate it when developers bite off more than they can chew with games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Bioshock. If you can't do something well don't do it at all. Start with something good and refine it.

[Aquinas]

The song playing while demonstrating the takedown moves is the same as the opening intro to the original Quake-based Team Fortress. I don't know if that's what Ross was referencing but it took me back!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FVJ__rBFxk

 

Ha, haven't seen that in years Those quake videos in-engine were great.

 

I have heard of a lot of people who hate the takedown moves in DX HR and MD - the Zero Punctuation review of Mankind Divided pointed them out in particular and said they break immersion. In contrast I really enjoyed them and think they ADD to the immersion; sure they take away control briefly, but they do something that would be impossible for you to do in first person and help reinforce the characterisation of Jensen as super soldier. To again risk the wrath of the DX purists, sneaking around all the time and dying in one or two shots jars a bit with everyone fearing you as the next stage in human evolution, but watching Jensen just DESTROY two people in a few moments is pretty awesome.

[John]

I have heard of a lot of people who hate the takedown moves in DX HR and MD - the Zero Punctuation review of Mankind Divided pointed them out in particular and said they break immersion. In contrast I really enjoyed them and think they ADD to the immersion; sure they take away control briefly, but they do something that would be impossible for you to do in first person and help reinforce the characterisation of Jensen as super soldier. To again risk the wrath of the DX purists, sneaking around all the time and dying in one or two shots jars a bit with everyone fearing you as the next stage in human evolution, but watching Jensen just DESTROY two people in a few moments is pretty awesome.

 

See I don't hate them but I really wish there were more of them. I mean if you're going to add them in get your artists who by the end aren't doing much at all to just churn out new animations for those takedowns so they don't get stale as fast.

[daisekihan]

I attribute SOME of what I was seeing to the anime overtones (come on, they have a FF poster on the wall), because I seriously don't see this in any other sort of western media, like the overly humble researcher or some of the animation decisions. As for Taggart, here's the deal:

 

At the time he was doing that gresture, he was CONFRONTING Jensen, trying to throw him off guard, projecting confidence. If he's trying to act nervous, his body language didn't match AT ALL. Furthermore, he's a public official for a serious organization, that gesturing throws everything out of sync. People at that level with connections to government have a lot of composure about them and are essentially part of a different class. Even if they're caught red-handed with something, people like Taggart didn't get to where they are without being smooth operators. In the same way you expect a professional poker player to keep his cool, his whole job is public relations and staying composed under pressure (that is, if he was on the defensive, which he wasn't at the time). I'm sorry, but the anime-like gestures for that character just ripped me right out of it. If it had been for Pritchard, I might not have thought of it the same. Ultimately, it's a culmination of many different things. Really it's the police response to the terrorists that sent me over the edge, and that's not anime-related at all, that's just purely writing about what the author clearly didn't understand.

 

I had forgotten the context of that interaction, but while I admit the animation can be clunky, but I don't think it had to do with anime--note, for example, the bizarre gesturing from the run animation you sometimes see. But I think you're wrong about Dr. Reed--replace her with Mark Zuckerberg---do you really think no one would be acting obsequious toward him because he's young? Also, listen to the context of this gesture (

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYCaMiBzDok at 1:05). Taggart is a psychiatrist used to making himself appear more human to get people to open up to him, which is just what this gesture is trying to convey, and it isn't the only time he analyzes you. As for the cops, that may be reasonable, but I'm talking about whether this particular example of yours that the characters act in ways no human would act is flawed, and I think it is.

 

 

] See this is where I think it really falls short of Deus Ex. Besides not making very compelling arguments for augmentations being a big deal, they don't try to show any REAL reasons that employment is being lost that you as the player could see even if the public is fixated on augmentations. The short version is the concerns of the citizenry seem very real in Deus Ex, whereas HR's narrative felt incredibly artificial to me and felt like it was entirely rhetoric. They needed better propaganda in other words. I found it easier to believe the cult of the Omar was trying to actively advance evolution because they explained what they were doing and why. HR really likes to dodge the "why" and keep things as vague as they can. That's not good for what's your central premise. You're right in that I may have been hasty about nurses and possible a couple other occupations, however we're ALREADY in an employer's market, people are going to be tripping over each other for jobs and HR could have tried to explain the dynamics of that more, but it really felt like it was all augs, all the time.

 

 

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying---yeah, it was all rhetoric, and that's the point.. (Side note: I dislike the use of the word rhetoric as a pejorative, as though persuasion were all empty persuasion, but I know what you mean). In the same way that politicians and pundits create scapegoats for people to loathe and fear so they'll through their support or money behind them, the Illuminati makes augs into scapegoats even though they don't pose any real threat (or they wouldn't if it weren't for Darrow).

 

Hey, I think the gameplay was great, I honestly can't decide which I like better, HR's or DX's. A lot of the combat was excellent. Coloring aside, I also thought it had great art design, IF it was a different game. The thing to understand is this is a PREQUEL. So when you make a prequel or sequel that clearly shows signs of not respecting the source material, how can you expect a fan of the original to be comfortable with that? It would be kind of like adding Roman Chariots and Naval Battles to Lord of The Rings or The Hobbit. Cool concepts on their own, but doesn't really belong in what's already an established universe. So try to appreciate this from my perspective, it's one of my favorite games being invaded by a different intellectual property. It doesn't mean that the new concept is bad, but it's not unreasonable to see how that can ruffle feathers. I'm sure there are games you appreciate that you would not want to see a sequel mixed with an IP you thought was a poor fit for it.

 

Look, it's obvious there's talent behind DX:HR, but I honestly think the Deus Ex IP is holding them back and I'd rather play the game they would make without DX being an anchor around their neck. Something where realism isn't as much of an issue as it is for DX fans and they could go wild. I think they have the chops to pull off something truly imaginative that could be a modern classic if they were to launch a new IP.

 

Okay, I'll give you that--I have to admit, I haven't played either of the other games, so that probably colors my feelings. However, I don't think the game is saddled with the DX IP, if anything that provides it with a leaping off point. Maybe if you think of it as a soft reboot, it wouldn't seem so bad? In any case, I just felt by your tone that you weren't extending the benefit of the doubt to this game's altering the original tone or premise the way you did for Invisible War.

 

Won't happen. I think we have more great games than ever, it's overwhelming. Hell, I made a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa29EM-YTwo list and had LOADS of runner-ups! Why would I do that if I thought modern games were garbage? Hell, I mentioned Party Hard in the last episode, that game was like crack for me. I literally have a list of hundreds of games (old and new) that grabbed me enough to warrant further research on because they looked like they could be pretty cool at first glance. I think you have me all wrong if you think what I'm writing is just pedantic bandwagon griping.

 

Yeah, I was unfair there. I think I meant more along the lines of...I don't you know if you're familiar with it, but I don't want the Game Dungeon to become /v/.

[danielsangeo]

I'm still working on subtitles for the previous Deus Ex (Invisible War). I'm about 2/3rds of the way done that. I know you all are fine with the slow turn around, but I do want to apologize still for the long delay between release of the video and the subtitles. My illness threw a huge monkey wrench into things. I hope to have the Deus Ex subtitles finished before the next Game Dungeon, however.

 

But if a smaller video comes out (like "Pigeon Hunter" or even something the length of a standard Civil Protection episode), I'm going to prioritize that so I can get it out quickly and then get back to the longer videos such as Game Dungeons.

[TTomate]

I attribute SOME of what I was seeing to the anime overtones (come on, they have a FF poster on the wall), because I seriously don't see this in any other sort of western media, like the overly humble researcher or some of the animation decisions. As for Taggart, here's the deal:

 

At the time he was doing that gresture, he was CONFRONTING Jensen, trying to throw him off guard, projecting confidence. If he's trying to act nervous, his body language didn't match AT ALL. Furthermore, he's a public official for a serious organization, that gesturing throws everything out of sync. People at that level with connections to government have a lot of composure about them and are essentially part of a different class. Even if they're caught red-handed with something, people like Taggart didn't get to where they are without being smooth operators. In the same way you expect a professional poker player to keep his cool, his whole job is public relations and staying composed under pressure (that is, if he was on the defensive, which he wasn't at the time). I'm sorry, but the anime-like gestures for that character just ripped me right out of it. If it had been for Pritchard, I might not have thought of it the same. Ultimately, it's a culmination of many different things. Really it's the police response to the terrorists that sent me over the edge, and that's not anime-related at all, that's just purely writing about what the author clearly didn't understand.

 

The problem with Taggart's animation during that scene is that it's the stock animation the game uses for all normal (male) NPCs. It's one of the many small details that bothered me in HR. And they look shit. There is a conversation "boss battle" with Taggart later in the game, and for those battles the game uses unique animations that were specifically made for those battles. That's why they work so well, and Taggart moves and behaves like you would expect him to. Immediately afterwards you'll get a follow-up dialogue with him where he is, once again, animated like every other generic NPC. The difference is so jarring, it makes it really difficult to get to like the characters when they all show the same mannerisms.

 

What is it with animations and facial expressions that's still so difficult today? You mentioned Bloodlines in the video which was released in 2004. The characters in that game are much better animated than in HR (even MD). Sure, the models have fewer polygons, are less detailed and use low-res textures from today's perspective. But the animation and expressions still hold up, and there are no lip-syncing issues. It feels like you are talking to people, not stiff puppets. I don't get it. The Source engine pioneered this over a decade ago. By now, every game should be using this technology or better. Where is the advancement?

[klasodeth]

The problem with Taggart's animation during that scene is that it's the stock animation the game uses for all normal (male) NPCs. It's one of the many small details that bothered me in HR. And they look shit. There is a conversation "boss battle" with Taggart later in the game, and for those battles the game uses unique animations that were specifically made for those battles. That's why they work so well, and Taggart moves and behaves like you would expect him to. Immediately afterwards you'll get a follow-up dialogue with him where he is, once again, animated like every other generic NPC. The difference is so jarring, it makes it really difficult to get to like the characters when they all show the same mannerisms.

 

That was one of the most obvious problems for me with Human Revolution. I remember when I first met Malik in the game. There was a twitchy quality to her that I found intriguing. It seemed like a unique detail, but soon after I started to realize that pretty much every female was animated the same way. It quickly got to be annoying because it stood out so much. People may tend to complain about stuff in various games being blandly generic, but I find noteworthy repetitiveness to be more annoying, since it sticks out so much more. And I think my experience with Malik is appropriate here, because as with daisekihan's experience with Taggart, I initially mistakenly assumed the animation quirks were a deliberate part of the character, rather than something generic for a large number of NPCs.

 

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying---yeah, it was all rhetoric, and that's the point.. (Side note: I dislike the use of the word rhetoric as a pejorative, as though persuasion were all empty persuasion, but I know what you mean). In the same way that politicians and pundits create scapegoats for people to loathe and fear so they'll through their support or money behind them, the Illuminati makes augs into scapegoats even though they don't pose any real threat (or they wouldn't if it weren't for Darrow).

 

Remember though that this is a game where players actions at the end of the game influence how the public perceives augmentation technology. Even if the characters in the game are largely being influenced by rhetoric, shouldn't the PLAYER at least be exposed to facts surrounding the different viewpoints so that they're making an educated decision? It's perfectly possible to have facts that don't lead everyone to the same conclusions. Just look at the Edward Snowden leaks for just one of many examples. He leaks information on how the government monitors people, and it gets two widely different reactions. One side hates him for compromising the government's efforts to maintain national security. The other side loves him for revealing government intrusion into people's lives. The facts from the leaks support both sides. His information does put the government into an embarrassing political situation, while simultaneously giving terrorists and other criminals the opportunity to reevaluate how they use technology to communicate. But on the other hand, it's also solid evidence on how people's privacy is being invaded, which gives people reason to be more distrustful of government. Neither side is operating on false information, but their personal beliefs dictate the conclusions they draw from the facts. This is the way the game should be--letting the player make their decision based on facts, rather than on solely on who makes the most persuasive argument. For people who are on the fence, rhetoric may help push them toward one conclusion or another, but that rhetoric should have a basis in fact if the player's decision is supposed to have real meaning. After all, we're not trying to fool the player into falling for an Illuminati scheme. Deus Ex and Invisible War didn't do that. They both let the player behind the curtain, to see the secret societies in action and let the player draw conclusions based on what these factions are really doing, rather than on what the population at large thinks they do or don't do.

[Ross Scott]

Again I'd never say that now we have it I'd want it not to have been a thing, because it got me thinking about oil again, and how I really need to get that whole socio-economical collapse survival plan wormed through the works.

Me too man. I think Europe is much better situated to handle a transition, but it's hard to tell how hard or fast the impact will go. I think the best plan would be to try and find some sort of community of people mentally prepared to be able to accept some sort of transition, but that's a lot easier said than done. Believe me, I hope I'm wrong on the oil issue, but like I said in the video, it was enough to alarm the US military.

 

 

I had forgotten the context of that interaction, but while I admit the animation can be clunky, but I don't think it had to do with anime--note, for example, the bizarre gesturing from the run animation you sometimes see. But I think you're wrong about Dr. Reed--replace her with Mark Zuckerberg---do you really think no one would be acting obsequious toward him because he's young?

Unless Zuckerberg is so eccentric he expects that display of fealty to him, no, I don't. I imagine they would be very polite towards him and not bother him unless they had something they thought warranted his attention, but the body language was so over the top to me and just isn't what I would expect of a reputable scientist of his age. Again, it's what I would expect from a nervous intern. The point is, these are just small things that don't mean a lot by themselves, but add up to paint a larger picture.

 

As for Taggart, it's all context. I just don't see this happening from the leader of a special interest group who is otherwise conducting himself like a lobbyist or person of influence among Congress. If you can find an example of a senator or congressman who is known for conducting himself professionally making a gesture like that while talking to someone, an example of that could change my mind. I think you'll have difficulty finding some C-SPAN footage showing that. The way you present yourself to a person is paramount to people like Taggart.

 

Besides, let's not forget the knockout punch for showing the anime influences: Eliza Cassan. Can you explain a plausible scenario where a major news anchor is dressing like that in the future? Aside from some small variations, news anchors dress now largely the way they did 50 years ago. Their job is to present the news, which means being rather neutral. The news is the story, not them. This isn't MTV news, as a prequel, this looks very unrealistic and I think draws heavily from anime influences. Which again, calls into question, if the game isn't concerned with maintaining believable continuity between the first game, why make this a prequel at all and not an original IP?

 

Yeah, I was unfair there. I think I meant more along the lines of...I don't you know if you're familiar with it, but I don't want the Game Dungeon to become /v/.

I'm not familiar with it. For what it's worth, I can get mildly frustrated with how many people don't realize just how many good games there are out there due to poor coverage. The top 25 video really summed up my thoughts on it. I really feel like the current industry is doing an inadequate job of helping with game discovery. And hey, as for more modern games, if it wasn't for the combat, The Secret World would easily one of my all time favorites.

[Heliocentrical]

I'm so glad Ross is done with Deus Ex: Invisible War and Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Now he can go back to doing obscure games which is what I watched the channel for.

 

BTW Ross when will we be hearing more from Dead Game News? You mentioned in the september videochat that you've let it pile up so I'm very concerned for what has died.

[RandomGuy]

Malik mentions that she has augs to let her fly vehicles better, so there's that.

 

This game was always so much more fun in a non-lethal playthrough. Short, forgettable gun battles become intense encounters as you have to strategize exactly how to stealthily knock everyone out with nothing but your fists, a short ranged taser, gas grenades, flashbang grenades, and occasionally tranquilizer darts. Usually the first two. As well as figuring out non-conventional ways to beat the superpowered bosses* (which works on all but one of them, and all of them period in the Director's Cut). It feels like you're cyborg Batman.

 

*

 

Barret doesn't wear a gas mask and fights you in a dangerous industrial area filled with cylinders of deadly chemicals. Throw two or three of those containers at him and he's down for the count. I figured this one out pretty much immediately, especially since there's tons of cover and Barret's really slow, giving you plenty of time to figure it out

 

Namir is usually a pain, but he's got a glass jaw. If you can perform a takedown on him while he's off-guard, so he won't counter it,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v1X5F0d58I I actually beat him by accident, after he killed me a few times, by pressing Q just as he was jumping between platforms.

 

Hyron, the final boss, has a terminal to shut down life-support directly in front of Zhao. Hack it and you can bypass the fight entirely. Alternatively, convince Darrow to give you the codes, bypassing the need to even hack it. That's how I did it.

 

Federova is the only exception in the vanilla game. No tricks here, you just have to gun her down. However, the fight is much easier if you got the upgrade to harden your cybernetics against EMPs, since she apparently didn't get the same upgrade can be stunlocked indefinitely with EMP grenades.

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[NightNord]

Oh, well. Ross, I must admit, I'm kinda disappointed. When you've mentioned all this politics stuff in the first Deus Ex game dungeon, I was like "yes, finally someone who can see the real thing behind all this!". I was actually expecting you to pitch on a real DX:HR flaw. But instead you've spend like 20 discussing weird clothing and body language. What?

 

Just to put you into my perspective, I'm going to counter a few of your points. Not to defend the game, but rather to show that it's more like a perspective thing. You view the game as a game of Deus Ex series. I view it as a deus ex game. I'm going to put my arguments into spoilers, just to keep it short and separated and also because that's not the point.

 

Clothing, body language, architecture and 'realism' - DX:HR is a way symbolized game, like a theater. And for good reasons.

 

Real life reasons: that's a Renaissance style. People were actually wearing that stuff. Yes. And you may have noticed that people opposing the augmentations are wearing more normal clothes. It an allusion to medieval vs. renaissance. Church conservatism vs. science progressivism. Etc.

 

Jet ospreys are totally possible (jet engines are small enough) and VTOLs in general are way more realistic for trans-ocean flies than helicopters. It's just osprays are unstable and VTOLs in general are harder to control and they are much more complex and prone to break. Same thing will apply for jet osprays. It's not unrealistc. It's just no-one actually needs them. But hey - they look cool, so why not.

 

Modern built-from-scratch cities like Astana look exactly like that if not even more insane. And by DX:HR history Detroit was almost rebuilt from scratch.

 

Multilayered cities? Tokyo.

 

Game reasons: DX:HR is not a prequel. It's a reboot prequel. Asking it to be "realistic" is a bit too much. It's happening like almost few years from now and it's talking about full-blown neuro augmentations. We are struggling with basic things like servomotors that are durable and precise enough, and in a few years we are going to make an eye prosthesis with vision better than a biological one. And it's supposed to be something like a dozen years after Hugh Darrow invented the PEDOT cluster (neuro-connection). Something we don't have.

 

So they've made an alternate reality universe. With Australia civil war and stuff. China counter-revolution, etc. AFAIK deus ex wasn't placed in alternative reality.

 

In short: it was more or less a forced decision, so they've opted out to a more stylised and allegoric way. Because let's face it - it doesn't hurt any message a game may have

 

 

Police rection: the developer is Canadian. All-Judge-Dread kind of police is the american thing only. For the rest of the world police reaction is just right if not "weak". (might be slightly offensive for patriotic US citizens )

 

Real reasons: As topic says - in most of the world police job is to save people, not kill them. Even if these people are criminals. In Russia most policemen on normal duty don't even have guns. And even when they do, they always try to capture alive. That's because to kill someone they need a kill order. And that could be given only a judge. And you can't judge a man that haven't done anything yet. Essentially in most countries but USA to shoot at someone you need him to be shooting at you or, at least, pointing a gun. Just having a gun isn't enough.

 

Plus in that case we have a guy, who is not a cop, who rushed into the facility, _killed_everyone_ (you get that kind of response only if you killed a lot of them) without any kind of order, judgment or whatever. For what they know - it could have been an innocent bystanders you've just dragged from a street and dumped there with guns. "Hey, that's terrorists". In real life Jenson would be grounded for mass-murder and will have to prove that every single kill as a self-defence action. Police can shoot people if they have a permit, but even then - there are lots of them, they have concussion grenades and stuff, so chances of them capturing at least some of these "terrorists" (named "mislead kids" by the SWAT guy) alive.

 

And about shooting a leader. It was a ex-military guy holding a gun at the hostage head. In real world she would be dead before Jenson would have a chance to finish his "This ends now" phrase. Or she would be used as a human shield with the guy shooting at you. When a guy has a hostage there are always negotiations. Shooting the guy was a gamble, endangering the hostage and killing an imporant criminal who could have told a lot during the interrogation. Buy a guy without a kill permit.

 

Like for everyone else but americans this kind of police reation is not just normal, it's a bit to soft. They should've arrested Jenson and put him into prison for good. Or just not allow him into in the first place. If you say it's not a very good representation of american police - well, they have guys with vests and armed with shotguns just walking streets shooting at you for even slightest crime - that's close enough.

 

Game reasons: for "batshit crazy organized crime gang' kind of police force they've already got Belltower. So they had to make US police a bit softer than that, even if it's not that much realistic.

 

Again, game gives you 5 seconds to kill the terrorist leader - it's a game trick, so you can do it. You accept it, you should also accept an another trick - game makes people react to your actions. You've got a choice - knock out all of them, some of them, or kill everyone. Or just sneak around undetected. You've killed everybody.

 

What kind of reaction do you expect? Yes, sure, DX: HR is a bit too much moralistic, but hey, if killing everybody should be "a mayor giving you a medal" than knocking out everybody, including the leader, while also saving all the hostages should be what?

 

 

Augmentations, "Cyborgs only", jobs - the main point of the game is in it's name "human revolution". You may replace cyborgs with anything else like mass gene modifications, immortality, space travel, whatever - the idea will be more or less the same.

 

First of all - there are quite a lot of reasons why "augmentations" are a big deal, but two are the most common (with variations): "they are taking out jobs" (jealousy, xenophobia, pointing your own failures on someone else. See "migrants"), "this is not a way god intended" (conservatism, religious darkness, fear of the unknown). The last one is the main theme, hence the clothing style, lots of Icarus references, etc.

 

If you don't believe these two are not enough to cause a divide in the public, you haven't been watching the news. Or reading history.

 

About jobs: you've taken a guy with military augments and you've came to a conclusion that his probably not much better than a normal guy for sales, but probably has some advantages in combat. What a surprise. But there are more augmentations than Jensen has - Farridah has flying augmentations. I would argue that anyone can benefit from AR built-in into their eyes, constant internet connection, ability to talk without being heard, etc... But you really should use your imagination, that's deus ex - it's not intended to put everything in front of you. It says "augmentations make you think better, run faster, work longer" - that's enough to get an edge in lots of areas.

 

And even if we take just a few occupations with obvious advantages, like construction workers. First - augmentations will allow older people to work for longer, thus increasing the tension on the market. All the people pushed out of these occupations will flood others - so it will affect everyone nonetheless.

 

Plus "neuroposine" leash - people who are augmented unwillingly (as working girls in Hengsha) or due to indecent (basic augmentations are free/government sponsored) are leashed with the expensive drug for the rest of their life. They have a much higher urgency to solve their unemployment problem and will agree to work for less. Hence "stealing jobs"

 

Plus you don't need people actually having any actual problems with their jobs to blame someone for stealing jobs. It's enough to have someone in your circle sharing a story about someone else losing a job to get the impression. And with things already heated up - yeah, 1% is very much enough.

 

Again. For stealing jobs see "migrants". For religions debates see "cloning", "aborts", "muslim", "gays", whatever.

 

And, BTW, the girl that "avoided the direct answer" actually gave you the most detailed answer for what you've already know. It says "yes, you can, but they will be better and this is a highly competitive market, so you'll be booted". This argument sounded like picking because it's probably the only dialogue in the game where they actually get into the detail how exactly augmentations are stealing jobs (a thing you was bashing the game about just a few minutes before that) and you rush to accuse the game of "not giving the direct answer".

 

The whole game is based around idea that there is that breakthrough that not just changes the world around it - it changes YOU. Everyone. It's a human revolution and it's causing all kinds of reactions in the society. Maybe it's a big exaggerated, but for a good cause. It's a pivotal point. A point where a random not-so-imporant guy may easily tip the balance of forces and decide the cause of history.

 

And in that sense - DX: HR is by magnitude the most realistic game in all the series

 

 

Endings:

 

Not much to say here, but these endings are way better than original has. You had your action packed ending already and then you've been presented with a philosophical choice that isn't a choice if you've been playing it right. You just select what you feel is right and you see your character essentially echoing your thoughts. Images are irrelevant. That's probably the best ending an RPG can have. You start with a blank character with no particular opinion (slightly sceptic), you end-up with a strong believer.

 

Well, if you've been playing it the right way (that matches your choice). Endings are actually different depending on your actions across the game, which is also a big win.

 

 

So I'd say it's a clear case - you've disliked the game for whatever reason in the first place and then you've just picking on things. Maybe that's because it's yellow? I don't know, I don't care.

 

Anyway, in my pespective it's a very much a deus ex game. It has layers and the "third" layer has so much in it - from kinda current social divides, injustice, oppression to AI, transhumanism, philosophical and religions quesions - so it's easily on the same level as the original, if not more. And conspiracy theories made even more grounded and believable, yes.

 

But is it a true "successor" as a game to original deus ex. No. And there is a thing - considering conspiracy theories it has almost the same message as the original, but subtly changed, which turns it upside down. Original game was raising questions about the system itself - if it's correct that some people decide for everyone, but deception and lies or if it's not. It shows you flaws of the system itself. DX: HR shows you flaws or particular instances of the system, but it rather advocates for the system. In DX there were corporations making evil things. In DX:HR there are BAD corporations doing evil things. There are BAD people who make evil things, but there are GOOD people, who do exactly the same thing - lies, deception, etc, but for the good cause.

 

If anything, DX:HR advocates illumination. It just kinda says you - like you see, that's the bad illuminati and bad corporations. And our world isn't that bad, because we have good corporations and good illuminati! DX:HR advocates "leaders" and their "flock" system. You may even see how illuminati choices across the game are actually make more sense - you see abuse of augmentations, you see that lack of regulation lead to all kinds of crime, etc. And there is nothing bad in regulation. But you also see that people who propose these ideas are bad. So it essentially masquerading the bad idea behind the bad people, so you don't actually see why the idea is bad. And being pushed into idealistic or conservative views of Sarif and Hugh, you kind left with aftertaste that this idea would be good too if not... And the only sane option (do not lie and let people decide good or bad) is barricaded behind the suicide option, while there is absolutely no reason why it should be that way.

 

DX:MD goes the same way (i.e. advertising "good corporations" and "good leaders") - it also a way more politicised and biased.

 

TL;DR: DX:HR is a very much a deus ex game and as a game is easily the best one in series, but this time it's developed by Illuminati.

[Ross Scott]

Clothing, body language, architecture and 'realism' - DX:HR is a way symbolized game, like a theater. And for good reasons.

See this is the problem. You're absolutely right, this is theater. The original game was a fun videogame story, with reality bleeding in through the cracks the way I really haven't seen done in other games.

 

Game reasons: DX:HR is not a prequel. It's a reboot prequel. Asking it to be "realistic" is a bit too much.

I never got the memo this was supposed to be a reboot, so I was judging it by normal prequel standards. Most of your points below are irrelevant because we're judging by completely different standards. I'm expecting a halfway point between reality and Deus Ex. You're essentially saying we can reimagine anything, so we're in a fundamental disagreement with what the game is supposed to be. You can't really communicate effectively under that scenario. If this was an original IP, I wouldn't have half the complaints I do. But it DOES use the Deus Ex name and seems to be trying to connect it to the original, so you have to expect people like myself will be comparing this to the original game. You say asking it to be halfway realistic is too much, but from perspective, that's what it was supposed to be, but they've changed the terms.

 

Again, I'm willing to give them a free pass on augmentations and just assume those are a reality, same for mechs and other sci-fi elements already in the original. I wasn't expecting absolute realism, I was expecting a halfway point. By those standards, you can hopefully understand some of my criticisms.

 

Police rection: the developer is Canadian. All-Judge-Dread kind of police is the american thing only. For the rest of the world police reaction is just right if not "weak". (might be slightly offensive for patriotic US citizens )

I have a degree in criminal justice, I'm well aware of many policing differences around the world. And I say that no cop worldwide, be it Canada, the UK, France, or Japan, would be shocked and scornful of another officer shooting a terrorist who had a gun to the head of an innocent woman, let alone the leader of an extremist group who had already been shooting at the police with submachine guns. The ONLY reason that would be considered completely unacceptable would be if it further endangered other lives. So if there were 3 hostages and 3 terrorists in the building, firing on only one of them would be a horrible decision, because then the other two might execute the others.

 

The point I hope you get here is there's a WORLD of difference between questioning a suspicious person on the street v. resolving armed terrorist actively shooting at people and taking hostages. In the latter scenario, regardless of the culture, the police will respond in similar ways because their #1 focus is saving as many innocent lives as possible. In such extreme scenarios, the police will always gravitate towards whatever method has the highest possibility of saving laws. If lethal force against the perpetrators is the lowest risk option, you bet other police forces will take it. It all comes down to what has the highest probability of the victims (and officers) walking out alive.

 

Again. For stealing jobs see "migrants". For religions debates see "cloning", "aborts", "muslim", "gays", whatever.

Pretty much this and every other point you're making here comes back to the same thing: we had completely different expectations from this game. I was expecting something more like Soylent Green, instead I'm getting Kabuki theater. You were expecting Kabuki theater, so by your evaluation, it's great. The symbolism is there obviously, but it's very nebulous, shies away from logical connections, and tends to shed the connections to reality.

 

You mentioned all these advantages augmented people have, but do we get a single mention as to whether that's truly an advantage for EMPLOYERS in the job market? Hell, I hear stories all the time of talented and experienced programmers losing their jobs and getting replaced with fresh from college people who are half as good, but work for a third as much. While some fields always need specialists, for most employers maximum profit margin is what counts. So who cares if the augmented guy is twice as good if the job gets done 20% slower with the guy who costs half as much? I don't remember HR addressing that at all. Right now in the current world, it's an employer's market, there's already fierce competition for many jobs WITHOUT disruptions like augmentations, so I'm judging this by real world standards, the way I might for Deus Ex if I suspend my belief about the existence of some technologies. But if you're looking for dramatic symbolism, comparing this using the logic from the real world is unimportant, which is why you see this as a much better game than I do. I mean you mentioned that you can swap in migrants, perfect example:

 

Human Revolution would show increased migrant presence, show the divide of different people over it, and show how society is changing because of increased migrant presence and express concern over the migrant future and where it might go.

 

Deus Ex would show that also (though not as thoroughly), then it would go onto to look at WHY migrants are coming in, discover its due to political disruption in their native region, then discover that was partially due to actions a different government took that destabilized the region in order to achive more control over it. And in the process it would show that some of the things migrants are being blamed for ALSO have other causes that aren't getting mentioned publicly that you're able to uncover, and by the end of the game, you have a better understanding of all the factors in play.

 

But is it a true "successor" as a game to original deus ex. No. Original game was raising questions about the system itself - if it's correct that some people decide for everyone, but deception and lies or if it's not. It shows you flaws of the system itself. DX: HR shows you flaws or particular instances of the system

We're basically in agreement here. For me, that's a big downgrade, for you, it obviously worked.