ROSS RANTS: VIRTUAL REALITY LAUNCH

[Sergeant Shootchin]

Glad I don't get motion sick, you would think they would account for something like that. Don't they want to sell their product to as many people as possible?

[HLPrincess]

OCULUS ROSS !!!!

[klasodeth]

Ross, I had jobs using 3D vision (on windows 7), I used 3D glasses, I found that Real 3D is possible with NVIDIA drivers and screens. The issue was not the driver but the product, with very certain result and method you could see really amazing crap, depth perception so good you feel like the tip of objects follow you when you move around your head.

The differences I saw between the products that worked and those who didn't (I'm unsure if some of them really even matter) were 4 main ones:

 

1. detailed pictured, that weren't using flat textures (obviously because I'm talking about real life photos), as many amount of details and shadows and bumps as possible in the picture. Im serious, the more happens the better things are.

Flat "3d" textures that only look 3D with a 2D screen just hurts the illusion (if that makes sense)

 

2. Limited color pallet, even black and white if possible, it sounds strange, but when you don't have colors distracting your vision, you're eyes concentrate on how everything different pops out, it works.

 

3. High resolution, as high as it can be. This one is obvious, most games do this alright so I have no complaints there. I'll just add that I think that nothing should be a pure color, everything needs a little depth with texture.

 

4.THIS IS IMPORTANT, possibly the reason many games fail with 3D.

There is a certain way 3D pictures on the screen are placed on each other, they need to have a common area at the right depth. Something that your eye gets its reference point from. Everything that diverts from that area in a certain direction, will seem either deeper or higher accordingly. The best result will happen (at least i think it will) when that point is at the center of your field of vision, it needs to make your character and the immediate area look close, while other things look far. putting that point too far will cause your head to hurt when looking at things that pop out too much, Putting the point too close, will make everything seem far, and barely have any effect. I think the latter is the issue with most 3D games. The way developers implement that point of reference to prevent people from crossing their eyes too hard.

The best way to solve it (at least in my opinion), is to give the user a certain degree of control on it, I don't know how it can be done effectively, but there are many possibilities on how developers can implement this. It can't be too hard.

 

I hope this gives some perspective (pun intended), NVIDIA have terrible idea on what 3d games should look, but they provide the hardware that can work with the right product.

I agree with #4 completely. Honestly, even though it's the same technology, the 3D effect from the Elsa Revelators was NOTICEABLY better than 3D vision, even though Nvidia bought them out and used the same technology. It took a lot of the "wow" factor away and I can't even explain why, but it sounds like you have a better grasp on it. As for flat textures, the illusion is obviously broken in 3D, although again, I'd be thrilled to play something with Quake or Unreal graphics in 3D, so I can scale my expectations accordingly. I'm not sure decent color would be an issue for me. As for low resolution, what I liked less were the lines between the pixels. The low resolution wasn't a huge problem for me, although it certainly does promote nearsighted tendencies since a lot of far off details can't be focused on.

I wrote about this in more detail back in the Ross Rants: 3D thread, but it is absolutely possible to adjust both depth and convergence to get exactly the desired 3D effect with NVIDIA 3D Vision. The catch is that the convergence adjustment is disabled by default, and the method to enable it isn't intuitive. There's also the issue that it's easy to assume the convergence adjustment is broken, because the convergence adjustment doesn't have onscreen UI like the depth adjustment does, and the changes to convergence aren't readily apparent until the convergence point starts getting close to the screen plane. But it's there, and it does work.

 

An Ross, as for VR, don't despair yet on the nausea front. I was watching that video where you tried DK1, and it pretty much mirrored my experience. The Tuscany demo on the DK1 instantly caused nausea as soon as I started moving, and going up the stairs in that demo made me fell like I was about to vomit. DK2 was a far superior experience for me, and with the room scale capability of the Vive, some surprisingly intense titles have been easy for me to deal with. I just tried Windlands, which I bought specifically to see what I could tolerate out of a Vive game, and I found I was able to handle that better than I could Titans of Space on the DK1, which caught me completely by surprise. The hardest part of Windlands for me to deal with was the tutorial level, which keeps you on the ground for most of it. Once the game opened up, it got easier to handle. Also, I don't think you should underestimate the benefit of room scale. Games built with room scale in mind are nausea free for most people, as your movements in real life and in the game are not out of sync. Room scale may have its own limitations, but it sure beats getting too sick to enjoy VR.

 

Even if you don't want to take advantage of room scale or don't have the space for it, having access to motion controllers opens up many possibilities for streamlined interfaces. Imagine not having to have separate buttons for firing, reloading, selecting weapons, opening doors, etc. Just reach out with a controller and grab/interact with what you want. Imagine being able to open a door slowly the way you would in real life, instead of having to have a clumsy interface implemented for the purpose. Or throwing a grenade around a corner without exposing yourself to an enemy. How throwing that grenade with a light underhand toss instead of a hard overhand toss, or maybe aggressively slinging that grenade under a partially opened garage door, or gently lobbing it just over a wall. Or manipulating items in multiple axes without having to have the infamous "robot crane arm" from Trespasser. Or being able to glance at the Pip-Boy on your arm just by moving it in front of your face. I could go on and on, but with the right design, proper motion controls means getting away from having dozens of button mappings just to be able to interact with the game. At the very least, you were talking about how NVIDIA's idea of mapping mouse control to the headset was a bad idea because you'd have to be waving your head all over the place. Well, proper motion controls make that completely unnecessary without forcing you to aim with an analog stick. It's really cool being able to place a shield over my head or behind me in Space Pirate Trainer while shooting in a completely different direction. Try doing that with a gamepad. Or then there's Windlands where I can shoot over my shoulder to latch onto a nearby surface without having to see it. I don't think VR is complete without motion controllers, but at least on the plus side, they're already available for the Vive and Oculus is actively working on their own, so that should be a non-issue as long as you go with either of the front-runners.

[Selfsurprise]

OCULUS ROSS !!!!

 

This sounds like a program that would turn all in-game characters into Ross, irrespective of their gender or even species.

[BTGBullseye]

Even if you don't want to take advantage of room scale or don't have the space for it, having access to motion controllers opens up many possibilities for streamlined interfaces. Imagine not having to have separate buttons for firing, reloading, selecting weapons, opening doors, etc. Just reach out with a controller and grab/interact with what you want. Imagine being able to open a door slowly the way you would in real life, instead of having to have a clumsy interface implemented for the purpose. Or throwing a grenade around a corner without exposing yourself to an enemy. How throwing that grenade with a light underhand toss instead of a hard overhand toss, or maybe aggressively slinging that grenade under a partially opened garage door, or gently lobbing it just over a wall. Or manipulating items in multiple axes without having to have the infamous "robot crane arm" from Trespasser. Or being able to glance at the Pip-Boy on your arm just by moving it in front of your face. I could go on and on, but with the right design, proper motion controls means getting away from having dozens of button mappings just to be able to interact with the game. At the very least, you were talking about how NVIDIA's idea of mapping mouse control to the headset was a bad idea because you'd have to be waving your head all over the place. Well, proper motion controls make that completely unnecessary without forcing you to aim with an analog stick. It's really cool being able to place a shield over my head or behind me in Space Pirate Trainer while shooting in a completely different direction. Try doing that with a gamepad. Or then there's Windlands where I can shoot over my shoulder to latch onto a nearby surface without having to see it. I don't think VR is complete without motion controllers, but at least on the plus side, they're already available for the Vive and Oculus is actively working on their own, so that should be a non-issue as long as you go with either of the front-runners.

I personally would rather have the VR system depicted in Johnny Mnemnic... Those golves, with force feedback, would be far superior to any other hand controller system. Heck, I'd be perfectly happy with those having fully wired connections too.

[klasodeth]

I personally would rather have the VR system depicted in Johnny Mnemnic... Those golves, with force feedback, would be far superior to any other hand controller system. Heck, I'd be perfectly happy with those having fully wired connections too.

We're getting pretty close to that. Manus VR doesn't have force feedback, as far as I know, but those gloves support full finger tracking.

[danielsangeo]

Just wanted to mention that the subtitles for this are going to be delayed for a time. They will be done before this weekend and hopefully before the next Game Dungeon.

 

Thanks for the patience everyone!

[Woah_G!]

I could see Ross being a concept tester or QC for game software development and hardware testing. If I find some people in the industry that are looking for a motivated individual that has some affinity for community influence via these rants and forums; I'll ask if Mr. Scott will be interested.

[Presence]

You know, VR would probably be a great way to fish. Sonar isn't exactly elegant on a 2d screen, but vr would let one visualize the waters in 3d realtime. Plus it'd be dirt simple to make the hook trackable. On top of that you could skin the data any way you liked to make it more interesting. Lovecraftian deeps to pastel fairylands to minecraft water bricks. Yes, we at last live in an age where we can mine for fish.

[danielsangeo]

I have vorpX (something I got back when I got the Oculus DK2 for Christmas). I didn't really use it much because it didn't seem to work all that well.

 

However, Oculus recently updated their runtime and now vorpX is working. Sort of. I am having FOV issues with it and everything feels too zoomed in no matter what setting I use. But it DOES work on non-VR games such as "Alien: Isolation". If I could get the FOV working correctly, it'd be great. However, the mouse controls were connected to the head tracking and that might get quickly cumbersome to aim. Not so much in Alien: Isolation but definitely in Half-Life 2 (the two games I've tried it on so far).

 

That's something they need to fix.

 

And I know it can be done because I have seen it. Back when SteamVR was first getting off the ground, they had "native support" for Half-Life 2. It worked pretty well. I got from the beginning (the G-Man sequence didn't really work, but the rest did) all the way to the airboat without getting sick even once (except at the loading screens--I'll come back to that). But then the airboat FOV was all fouled up. Valve released an update later and the airboat FOV was fixed. I played through until you had to fight the gunship underneath the large bridge when SteamVR updated again and broke "native support" for Half-Life 2. And it hasn't worked "natively" since. CURSES!

 

However, when it DID work, it was beautiful. And the mouse controls, meaning weapon aiming, was uncoupled from my head tracking allowing me to aim naturally with the mouse. I thought it would be cumbersome at first, but I was surprised at how natural it felt. I became a crack shot really quickly--far more accurate than I've been with mouse aiming on a 2D monitor.

 

I would really love to try the Vive in Half-Life 2 with the controllers. Hopefully it works there.

 

As for the motion sickness, that can come with a lower frame rate. Even beefy computers aren't quite up to the task of TWO high-def displays at a high refresh rate yet.

 

When I was running Half-Life 2 with "native support", whenever I came to a loading screen, I suddenly got very dizzy because the world stopped moving but I didn't. I felt like I was tripping over something and everything started spinning briefly. I got sick as a dog at every loading screen. I had to remember that a loading screen was coming up and quickly shut my eyes whenever I got to it so I wouldn't get sick.

 

However vorpX seems to have come up with a solution. At loading screens, it would stick you seamlessly in a "VR theater" of sorts where whatever you were looking at is now on a huge 3D screen and if your head turns, you're not as jostled around by the sudden lack of movement. It worked very well. VorpX also allows you to enter that "VR theater" at any time by pressing the middle mouse button (assuming you don't have that bound for something else) so you can read menus or whatever else without eye strain.

 

VR still has a way to go, but the problems that are mentioned are going to be solved and probably fairly quickly. Within 3 years, I bet most of the problems cited will be fixed.

[Ross Scott]

Ross, I believe a lot of your issues with VR Sickness stem from the nature of the headset you're using and the movement system generally used for the DK2 and DK1.

Yes and no. I realized after I made this, I was focusing on a different point, but a lot of people thought I was assuming most native VR games for the CV1 and Vive would cause nausea also. I don't think that, my point was that motion sickness is EASY to induce unless the game is specifically designed for it. That unfortunately includes most 3D games made and limits mobility substantially on native VR ones.

 

Other then mods there is your idea, the 3D Theater. Some companies do indeed make software for that to sit you down next to a huge ass 3D TV essentially. Valve includes it with Steam VR and launches almost any title into it, but will only display 3D if it uses a specific standard. Otherwise its just a 2D image on a huge TV.

Yeah, that's great for games that get full VR adaption treatment, but I'd rather focus more on solutions for the huge bulk of existing games already out there that full immersion simply isn't an option for, but good 3D still is. And yeah, the 2D image virtual cinema thing I don't think would add to the immersion that much.

 

I don't know which consumer version to buy, to be honest. I do like the room tracking of the Vive but I have to admit to myself that I'm lazy where it comes to games. I want to sit down. I know you can sit with the Vive as well, but I'm still puzzled over which is better. Ross says "none" at the moment because of the launch stupidity, but I really do want to see some kind of unfiltered pros and cons of each.

Well the real answer isn't "none" so much as "it's really not obvious." In any event, there are two links I recommend. One, that review I showed in the video is THE best comparison of the Vive and Rift I've seen out of all the ones I've looked at:

 

 

Additionally, the HDK2 is coming out in July. No idea if that will be better or not, but it's certainly worth taking a look at it. It should have different lens than the Rift or Vive, so that could be a good thing.

 

4pyuJa8VnME

 

I personally would rather have the VR system depicted in Johnny Mnemnic... Those golves, with force feedback, would be far superior to any other hand controller system. Heck, I'd be perfectly happy with those having fully wired connections too.

Hell, I'd prefer to control my OS that way.

 

 

I have vorpX (something I got back when I got the Oculus DK2 for Christmas). I didn't really use it much because it didn't seem to work all that well.

I may have to bug you about this in an email then, I have a lot of questions.

 

However, when it DID work, it was beautiful. And the mouse controls, meaning weapon aiming, was uncoupled from my head tracking allowing me to aim naturally with the mouse. I thought it would be cumbersome at first, but I was surprised at how natural it felt. I became a crack shot really quickly--far more accurate than I've been with mouse aiming on a 2D monitor.

Well to each his own, personally, I do NOT want to aim with my head, even if it has high accuracy.

[danielsangeo]

I have vorpX (something I got back when I got the Oculus DK2 for Christmas). I didn't really use it much because it didn't seem to work all that well.

I may have to bug you about this in an email then, I have a lot of questions.

 

I have a response to your email almost ready to go. I'm waiting for Dota 2 to finish downloading before I can try it out and give you my response on it.

 

However, when it DID work, it was beautiful. And the mouse controls, meaning weapon aiming, was uncoupled from my head tracking allowing me to aim naturally with the mouse. I thought it would be cumbersome at first, but I was surprised at how natural it felt. I became a crack shot really quickly--far more accurate than I've been with mouse aiming on a 2D monitor.

Well to each his own, personally, I do NOT want to aim with my head, even if it has high accuracy.

 

You may have misread what I said or I may not have explained it well. The weapon aiming was not attached to my head and that's a GOOD thing. I do not like aiming by jerking my head around like a friggin' bobblehead in a 8.5 earthquake. No, I could control the aiming using the mouse which was separate from the turning of my head. I could aim diagonally to kill a headcrab off to my side while running straight forward. That was awesome. Wish they could bring that back.

[danielsangeo]

Subs up!

[BTGBullseye]

You may have misread what I said or I may not have explained it well. The weapon aiming was not attached to my head and that's a GOOD thing. I do not like aiming by jerking my head around like a friggin' bobblehead in a 8.5 earthquake. No, I could control the aiming using the mouse which was separate from the turning of my head. I could aim diagonally to kill a headcrab off to my side while running straight forward. That was awesome. Wish they could bring that back.

+1

 

That would be my 1st choice for control method when combining VR and M+KB... I don't understand why it wasn't for the manufacturers...

[cutiepyro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9v_XN7Wxh8

 

if we could somehow output this into a 360 vr player, it would be great.

[thou]

It's like these companies are deliberately doing a half-assed effort for some reason.

 

I think it's because they might make a better version, who knows.

[Slug_Man]

I love these “Ross rants” because it always looks like he’s on the brink of insanity. There’s just something about how he might pause for a few extra seconds, or it seems like he pops his eyes almost. 

 

(I’m not slamming Ross here; I love his vids, btw)

[jackinthebox]

It's my first post. Lemme know if linking to videos is okay or not. Anyway-

You guys seen this guy's video? Explained one problem with 3d things. I figure Ross already know this, but... maybe he doesn't!

Also, this isnt ripping on 3D, this is more calling attention to a thing to be fixed/thought about when one is making 3d things.

The TLDR of the video though is, don't have anything appear closer to the viewer than the screen is. the screen is the hard limit of the closest an object should be. Everything should sink back into the screen, rather than pop out from it.

Otherwise...

"Why 3D sucks - the vergence accommodation conflict"
by Steve Mould

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by jackinthebox
Sleepy when first posted, thought i'd elaborate (see edit history)

[Jirka Justra]

Hi,

as suggested by ABlindSniper115 on youtube, here is a little on-topic gif x)