The EU Referendum

[Selfsurprise]

I'm not entirely sure how many British users are pottering around on this forum aside from myself and Binky The Rabbit, but feel free to wade in on the debate regardless of your nationality/home planet/plane of existence/vibrational transition state/spiritual plateau/etc... When in doubt, go along with dubious internet consensus!

 

As you may or may not be aware, there is going to be a referendum on the 23rd of June regarding Britain's membership with the EU - a vote on staying or leaving the union. As you can imagine the politicians are divvied up into laughably one-dimensional "in" and "out" campaigns, presenting disingenuous and painfully self-motivated slogans rather than having a serious discussion about the pros and cons of either potential result. On a more sobering note the political pantomime is stocking the rhetorical ammunition of extremist agencies on both the left and right wing spectrums, ranging from bleary-eyed leftist fantasists calling for the demolition of nations and borders, right through the scariest kind of rightist isolationists peddling their innumerable vile ideals.

 

If you were to ask me what option I'd choose right now, it would be an almighty resounding unequivocal... "I 'dunno".

For somebody with a passing interest in politics like me, I can somewhat sympathize with the sentiment held by some (predominantly those who don't vote) who feel that the results of party elections aren't going to affect their personal day-to-day existence in a major way. The results of this referendum will surely have much more profound consequences for all British people, and if you look past all of the aforementioned one-sidedness and personality politics you'll find excellent points and cognisant predictions for either outcome. And when you dig a little deeper beyond the mainstream coverage one finds equally valid counter-points and counter-predictions.

 

I must confess I'm nervous about the whole thing regardless of the decision the UK arrives at, what it will mean for us in both the short term and long term. Despite my concerted efforts into measuring both campaigns and its various proponents arguments, my final choice may actually boil down to pure instinctiveness. I've never been this uncertain about the right course before, not in elections or local votes or anything like that, and I can be rather self-reflexive and critical of both sides of a debate. I was just curious to know what some of you guys think. I'm sure it will only serve to deepen my uncertainty, but you never know!

[Vapymid]

I'm just as undecided as you are...

 

None of the "arguments" being exchanged by both campaigns can be taken seriously. In fact - they should all be totally disregarded and ignored as they are aimed at the lowest common denominator among the voters. Which is reeeeaaallly low.

 

So... Staying in is the "safe" option - but it comes with a cost. Not least the weakening of the UK's bargaining position in the EU - "Ah, you Brits, you can't leave now - we can make you do anything we want"

 

But leaving is simply a punt. No one can possibly say what the impact will be - too many factors.

 

The decision then is - say "pass" and be out of the game or roll the dice and face up to the consequences... Opportunity cost v the risk.

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

I would like to offer up a few points...

 

1. The EU leadership is self appointed, with no oversight. ANYONE can get in if the people already in allow it.

2. The EU currently taxes the UK more than any other member.

3. The UK has the least amount of representation of any country in the EU.

4. The UK has EU enforced limits on its economic capabilities, artificially hindering all aspects of the UK economy.

 

Just thought I'd put those forth, do with them what you will.

[GolfClubNinja]

From what I heard, if Britain leaves they will still work with the EU on issues and still have trade deals, but they won't be heavily affected by a failing country, such as Greece a couple years ago.

 

This is the video that gave me the most info, as a note however the guy is on the no side so he may be biased, but he puts out some good points.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WiqTpQReY8

 

Either way I don't care, I'm just some kid in the US so this affects me little. Not that I could even vote in it to begin with, so my opinion means little.

[Selfsurprise]

I'm just as undecided as you are...

 

None of the "arguments" being exchanged by both campaigns can be taken seriously. In fact - they should all be totally disregarded and ignored as they are aimed at the lowest common denominator among the voters. Which is reeeeaaallly low.

 

So... Staying in is the "safe" option - but it comes with a cost. Not least the weakening of the UK's bargaining position in the EU - "Ah, you Brits, you can't leave now - we can make you do anything we want"

 

But leaving is simply a punt. No one can possibly say what the impact will be - too many factors.

 

The decision then is - say "pass" and be out of the game or roll the dice and face up to the consequences... Opportunity cost v the risk.

 

Regards

I'm leaning towards to voting "in", but predominantly in a "better the devil you know" attitude. I'm not overtly against the EU and I'm certainly glad that it's there to rein-in some of the Conservatives desired financial plans. People regarded the Con/Lib-Dem coalition as a joke, but I think people forget that the latter party, for all of Nick Clegg's reneged promises, did actually succeed in preventing some cuts from being implemented. Your comment about staying in being the "safe" option is very insightful, how the EU will continue to the handle the UK afterwards, and I think we are already unusually compliant with EU regulations!

 

I would like to offer up a few points...

 

1. The EU leadership is self appointed, with no oversight. ANYONE can get in if the people already in allow it.

2. The EU currently taxes the UK more than any other member.

3. The UK has the least amount of representation of any country in the EU.

4. The UK has EU enforced limits on its economic capabilities, artificially hindering all aspects of the UK economy.

 

Just thought I'd put those forth, do with them what you will.

I'm not a strong believer in this narrative that the UK will be plunged into an economic dark age if we leave, I believe we have enough national affluence and assets to manage. If anything the Tories will reduce us to serfdom long before any deleterious effects of being outside of Europe's federation ever will. I consider staying in due short-term problems, but when I take a longer view I honestly start considering voting out as being rather more favourable. The EU's authority relies rather heavily on the on willingness of member countries to assent to their rulings, which I think for the most part we do. But those countries that aren't abiding by the rules quite so diligently or are wilfully disregarding certain responsibilities on their part, the EU seems to unable or unwilling to insist upon it. I can't help wondering if it's better to take our affairs out of an organization that could be in decline.

 

From what I heard, if Britain leaves they will still work with the EU on issues and still have trade deals, but they won't be heavily affected by a failing country, such as Greece a couple years ago.

 

This is the video that gave me the most info, as a note however the guy is on the no side so he may be biased, but he puts out some good points.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WiqTpQReY8

 

Either way I don't care, I'm just some kid in the US so this affects me little. Not that I could even vote in it to begin with, so my opinion means little.

Your contribution means a lot more to me than you give yourself credit for, don't count yourself out of the discussion just because it isn't your nation's problem. Thank you for the link, and trust me when I say that I'm not going to dismiss someone based on their age. You are just as valid as anyone else on here.

[Selfsurprise]

Hmm. The 23rd is inexorably creeping up on us, and I'm still not 100% certain about my vote. I guess I'm still leaning towards remaining.

[islandfox]

I've been on the fence throughout the campaigns. It's hard to even declare a position where I live; you're immediately branded as a racist if you want to leave, or happy to usher in the United States of Europe if you want to remain.

 

At the moment I'm teetering on the brink of voting to leave; I think the Eurozone will collapse within a generation regardless of the UK's position. From failing economies and bailouts to migration crises and terrorism, the whole thing to me has always seemed like a big mess.

 

Remain campainers seem to think we'll lose all sorts of workers rights if we leave, which I don't believe as the unions and what's left of the lefty parties will always oppose removing them. They also claim that leaving the EU would kill our NHS due to the number of foreign workers in it; the NHS has been haemorrhaging money for the past decade and promises from both campaigns to pump money into it always seem hollow; this is always promised during general election campaigns and it never makes a blind bit of difference then, and won't now. I'm also not sold on voting remain because in my view it essentially tells the EU that we're willing to bend over and accept whatever they throw at us. We all know how poorly Cameron did during his "renegotiation" but yet still declared it a success; this trend would only continue, I feel.

 

The Leave campaign constantly drags everything back to immigration, which isn't really an issue to me; I live in the countryside and aside from a few Polish agency workers, I wouldn't suggest immigration has affected us, certainly not like in the major cities. Another suggestion is that by "closing our borders" we'll somehow be completely safe from terrorism and ISIS will simply leave us alone... sure, as if we don't have enough of our own radicalised muslims, Britain First extremists and Irish car bombers in our recent history. Terrorism isn't just from a single threat and direction that we can shut the door on. Backing the Leave campaign is also seen as a "vote for Boris and Nigel" but I don't see it that way and no one should. The whole referendum has been beaten down to party politics and that's why so many people are undecided and disillusioned.

 

I'm still open to change but I don't really believe in voting for the status quo just for the sake of it. Whilst I'm currently 51/49 in favour of leave, I think overall the referendum will be won by the Remain campaign by around 60/40.

 

[EDIT] I decided to vote for remain, but I'm hugely shocked that leave managed to win. Uncertain times ahead, but let's just see where it takes us for now.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Fric]

I would like to offer up a few points...

 

1. The EU leadership is self appointed, with no oversight. ANYONE can get in if the people already in allow it.

2. The EU currently taxes the UK more than any other member.

3. The UK has the least amount of representation of any country in the EU.

4. The UK has EU enforced limits on its economic capabilities, artificially hindering all aspects of the UK economy.

 

Just thought I'd put those forth, do with them what you will.

 

Totally wrong actually...

 

1) main decisions and leaders are apointed by the European Council which basically means the meeting of heads of states/governments (president of the parliament is elected by MEPs)

2) UK contribution is not the largest - its actually like 4th..

3) least represantion? UK has a lots of voting power in the council. Or you meant something totally different?

4) be more concrete - thats just a vague statement. In my experience UK is actually in the group of ambitious countires who try to force stricter rules and EU legislation on everybody else....

[BTGBullseye]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issues_in_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union (you may or may not want to be a part of an organization originally designed to make globalized businesses more money)

[Selfsurprise]

I've been on the fence throughout the campaigns. It's hard to even declare a position where I live; you're immediately branded as a racist if you want to leave, or happy to usher in the United States of Europe if you want to remain.

Tell me about it. Talking to most people strikes me as a massive waste of ones own breath, and listening to the campaigners and politicians with their nakedly obvious agendas is even less worthwhile. The recent murder of Jo Cox this week is certain to fuel the remain-fundamentalists fire and insistence that all Brexiteers are right-wing nutcases.

 

At the moment I'm teetering on the brink of voting to leave; I think the Eurozone will collapse within a generation regardless of the UK's position. From failing economies and bailouts to migration crises and terrorism, the whole thing to me has always seemed like a big mess.

 

Remain campainers seem to think we'll lose all sorts of workers rights if we leave, which I don't believe as the unions and what's left of the lefty parties will always oppose removing them. They also claim that leaving the EU would kill our NHS due to the number of foreign workers in it; the NHS has been haemorrhaging money for the past decade and promises from both campaigns to pump money into it always seem hollow; this is always promised during general election campaigns and it never makes a blind bit of difference then, and won't now. I'm also not sold on voting remain because in my view it essentially tells the EU that we're willing to bend over and accept whatever they throw at us. We all know how poorly Cameron did during his "renegotiation" but yet still declared it a success; this trend would only continue, I feel.

Well that exact sentiment was one of the reasons I've seriously considered a leave vote. Because the EU is a democratic union, it relies on it's members choosing to comply with its policies, and I think with a few major exceptions Britain has abiding rather faithfully to those policies. I don't think any of us can forget the stink kicked up by other EU countries when Cameron made his rather cynical voter-carrot bid to curb EU migration into the country. But the manner in which some the EU's other members implement these policies, arguably leaves a lot to be desired. Do we want to be a sinking ship if the hulks wiser population of ennobled rats are already scuttling off the decks?

 

The Leave campaign constantly drags everything back to immigration, which isn't really an issue to me; I live in the countryside and aside from a few Polish agency workers, I wouldn't suggest immigration has affected us, certainly not like in the major cities. Another suggestion is that by "closing our borders" we'll somehow be completely safe from terrorism and ISIS will simply leave us alone... sure, as if we don't have enough of our own radicalised muslims, Britain First extremists and Irish car bombers in our recent history. Terrorism isn't just from a single threat and direction that we can shut the door on. Backing the Leave campaign is also seen as a "vote for Boris and Nigel" but I don't see it that way and no one should. The whole referendum has been beaten down to party politics and that's why so many people are undecided and disillusioned.

 

I'm still open to change but I don't really believe in voting for the status quo just for the sake of it. Whilst I'm currently 51/49 in favour of leave, I think overall the referendum will be won by the Remain campaign by around 60/40.

Immigration has never been a particularly pertinent issue for me, both in my personal life and in my ethical considerations. For a large-ish West Midlands town Tamworth isn't a particularly diverse place, bucking the trend for the region somewhat, and it's only in the last ten years or so I've noticed a steady (yet rather transient) community of Polish migrants settling into town. If there's some sort of evil cabal of swarthy-skinned foreign conspirators instigating some kind of cultural takeover in England, I must not be looking hard enough I guess... ;p

[Vapymid]

Everything that's been said about the immigration issues so far is complete bollocks.

 

There are drawbacks in the EU membership but the immigration has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

I first visited London way before there even was Schengen Agreement and in every restaurants the waiters were either Poles or Yugoslavians. I spoke to a few and they all were saying - "British people don't want these jobs"

Now - you will never find a local as a strawberry picker on a farm here. All are Poles or Bulgarians or Romanians. So - if they go, who will get the freaking strawberries to the supermarket?

The locals are just grumbling that the Poles are willing to work for less - that's why the locals prefer to just sip their beers and watch footy on their council-provided huge TV screens and get the benefits without doing diddley squat to deserve all that.

If the immigrants will go - this country will be screwed.

And - no, no Aurstalian points based system will help.

 

So, whatever the deciding issues may be - the immigration is not one of them.

 

Regards

[GolfClubNinja]

The main problem for some is the immigrants themselves, Muslims who have always lived in strict religious countries with quite different values. The live in self governed communities (from what I have heard, although I may be wrong on this point), practicing sharia law in their own courts. What happened in Cologne during New Years is known as taharrush gamea (harassment games is the literal translation), a common event in the city squares of Cairo as well as some other areas. The possible increase in rapes as well as segregated, self governend communities under sharia law are what most are worried about when it come to the mainly Islamic immigrants, not to mention terrorism of course.

[Vapymid]

There is no question that the immigration in Europe was a subject of mishandling by the authorities for decades on end.

 

But it has absolutely nothing to do with Britain either staying or leaving the EU.

 

Muslim immigrants have been coming to England for ages. Most EU migrants are not even Muslims at all. The UK is outside of the Schengen Area and people from outsisde EU have been and will be required to get visas or there will be visa waiver regime. People from the EU must still travel to the UK with passports and are subject to border checks, which will remain exactly the same even if the UK will leave.

 

So - whatever the causes of the cultural segregation between the immigrants and locals in the UK - the membership in the EU has nothing to do with them.

 

Regards

[GolfClubNinja]

I was just addressing the problems some have with Islamic immigration, but if they only come in low amount from the EU, then it is not a problem from the EU.

 

sdrageR

[BidetoftheDead]

So a lot has happened in the last few hours alone.

 

1. UK leave the EU wins

2. British Sterling drops over 11.4% (last I check) and almost all it's trade deals are now null and void, causing a stock market crash and leading to Japan cancelling trade with the UK.

3. It's revealed that UKIP party members had no intention of giving 350 Mil to NHS and called it "a mistake" only hours after

4. It's found out that UKIP constantly lied about how much is sent to the EU from the UK.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-nigel-farage-nhs-pledge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html

 

5. Despite wanting out Boris Johnson, the architect behind it, states there is no rush but EU states that if they want to leave it has to be as soon as possible to stop prolong uncertainties.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-boris-johnson-michael-gove-vote-leave-a7100431.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36618317

 

6. Numerous out of country workers from the UK can now barely afford rent and are uncertain if they'll still have their jobs

7. Northern Irish politicians talk about possible re-unification with Ireland and Scotland voted primarily remain which could be used for a second Scottish independence referendum

8. UK Prime Minister David Cameron has announced he is resigning and going to leave office by October

 

I'll find more articles on the other points when I can but I'm a bit busy right now.

[Jeb_CC]

I know the UK leaving the EU doesn't have any real massive effect on us here in Australia. But for some reason the UK leaving the EU makes me feel EXTREMELY depressed. :I Like, I don't know why I feel so sad about this right now. Maybe it's cause Vappy lives there. XD

[BTGBullseye]

I feel this will end up being good for everyone except the EU in the long run.

[BidetoftheDead]

I feel this will end up being good for everyone except the EU in the long run.

 

Don't know. UK no longer has to go with civil rights laws that the EU had, there is talk of a second Scottish independence referendum and Northern Irish politicians are talking about re-unification with Ireland, British lost a ton of money and lost their position as fifth most powerful economic, UK has to re-write and re-negotiate almost all of their trade agreements, UK will no longer get migrants looking for work without a lot of bureaucracy involved which will hurt their already understaff healthcare system especially now it turns out that NHS won't see any increase in budget which was one of the major claims of UKIP and the Leave campaign which surprises no one because UKIP has been pushing for privatizing NHS, I've seen a lot of stuff about people being harassed if they were born in Britain or not solely on the color of the skin.

 

UK seems to have a lot of problems in the long run, the only other people yelling for breaking free of the EU seem to just be right-wing nationalists that don't even have a lot of support in their home countries.

[Vapymid]

@Jeb - ah, darling, don't worry! It's alright and it's going to be alright here...

 

The troubling thing for me is that the decision to leave was obtained by basically false advertisement and misrepresentation. After the initial drunken euphoria the inevitable hangover will come and there will be a lot of anger on the streets. Those "leaders" who celebrate tonight will be looking for a good place to hide before too long.

 

As for the EU - paradoxically, but this may (and probably will) strengthen and stabilise the organisation. It removes the source of constant discord and tension and also shows to the ruling elite the real danger of populism. They may yet close their ranks and concentrate on making their union work. We'll see...

 

Regards

[Zelpa]

Second Scottish independence vote when? Then I can have 3 citizenships :^)