Capitalism vs. Statism

[ProHypster]

That's falsely assuming that the inhabitants will all be children or act like children.

 

Doesn't have to be so...

 

But yeah, generally it is so easy to take advantage of anarchy that I don't suggest any country today to do so.

 

Maaaaaybe in a distant future when for when we all are mature enough or in a tiny experimental state.

[BTGBullseye]

An Anarchy country... I could live there... Doom would be welcome...

 

Any governmentalist would be expelled by me.

[Song]

That's falsely assuming that the inhabitants will all be children or act like children.

 

Doesn't have to be so...

 

But yeah, generally it is so easy to take advantage of anarchy that I don't suggest any country today to do so.

 

Maaaaaybe in a distant future when for when we all are mature enough or in a tiny experimental state.

 

Well, the classic anarchy only works on a experimental basis or small agricultural states.

The idea was wonderful but it was still too crude to be useful on a greater scale.

Since then though, many more advanced solutions were born, based on classic anarchy.

I posted a great work that looks more closely into all of this some posts ago.

[danielsangeo]

An Anarchy country... I could live there... Doom would be welcome...

 

Any governmentalist would be expelled by me.

 

What would give YOU the right to expel a "governmentalist"? Isn't that a form of government?

[ProHypster]

That's falsely assuming that the inhabitants will all be children or act like children.

 

Doesn't have to be so...

 

But yeah, generally it is so easy to take advantage of anarchy that I don't suggest any country today to do so.

 

Maaaaaybe in a distant future when for when we all are mature enough or in a tiny experimental state.

 

Well, the classic anarchy only works on a experimental basis or small agricultural states.

The idea was wonderful but it was still too crude to be useful on a greater scale.

Since then though, many more advanced solutions were born, based on classic anarchy.

I posted a great work that looks more closely into all of this some posts ago.

 

This is what happened when a part of Ukraine tried to live under anarchy:

Anarchism in Ukraine dates from the 19th century with the writings of Mykhailo Drahomanov (1841-1895), though it draws its rebellious inspiration in the actions of Nestor Makhno from the peasant uprisings of Stenka Razin and Yemelyan Pugachev as well as the Zaporozhian Cossacks.

 

The first theoretical anarchist was Mykhailo Drahomanov who was influenced by such writers as Proudhon and Bakunin. While living in Geneva, he wrote numerous political tracts against all sorts of centralized governments and favored a bottom-up form of democracy of small communities organized on a federative basis, often referring to the Swiss form of government as a model.

 

Anarchists were active in the Russian Revolution of 1905 and suffered repression following its failure. Maria Nikiforova was arrested at this time, as was Sasha Shapiro, father of the anarchist mathematician, Alexander Grothendieck[1]. Nestor Makhno and other anarcho-communists continued their attacks against aristocrats and capitalists throughout the south-eastern part of Ukraine.

 

Makhno became active again after the Russian Revolution of 1917 in the raion of Huliaipole in a peasant region. Anarchist communes formed across south-eastern Ukraine, many of them productive enough to exchange wheat for textiles with workers in Moscow. Makhno at one time fought with Bolsheviks against the White Army and, because of his refusal to subordinate his army under Bolshevik command, he was denounced as a bandit, betrayed, and ultimately defeated by the Bolsheviks. For a duration of three years he formed the Free Territory with his (mostly peasant) Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine. The Free Territory existed only until June 1919, but in that time, communities operated successfully on the economic theories of the anarchist Peter Kropotkin and educational principles of Francesc Ferrer i Guàrdia.[verification needed]

 

Makhno tried to defend the Free Territory against further attacks by the Bolshevik and White armies, but lost ground throughout 1920 and 1921. By the end of 1921, the anarchist groups in Ukraine had been arrested or dispersed. Makhno fled to Romania, then Poland, and finally Paris, where he wrote his memoirs and proposed organizational tactics based on what he had learned in Ukraine.

 

Basically since the territory didn't have any official army or state the bolsheviks easily used this to propaganda him as an evil guy who secretly slaughters his people instead of practicing anarchy.

What followed is that even the enemies of the communists attacked them.

 

Then finally the bolsheviks invaded that territory where peaceful farmers resided...

[Doom Shepherd]

That's falsely assuming that the inhabitants will all be children or act like children.

 

Heh. I've had to interact with a LOT of people in my jobs at a public library and then at a University.

 

Yeah, most adults don't act like children.

 

A lot of them are much, much worse.

 

I don't believe any "utopian" society, such as Anarchism or textbook Communism, will ever work in a society run by humans acting under the effects of their natural emotional and psychological variations.

 

Utopia is like a supersaturated solution, where if you drop in one crystal, and suddenly the entire structure is altered by the disturbance, and ceases to be what it was before. Utopias have to be extraordinarily xenophobic to survive. Changes and new ideas disrupt the system.

 

Now, maybe, over time, you could remove the impulses that cause disruption from humanity. Ambition. Desire. The need to change things for change's sake. The need to test the boundaries, and "game" the system for one's own benefit. The desire to have more than what one has, or to compete with others or one's self. Maybe these could all be "bred out." But what you'd be left with... wouldn't be humans anymore. They'd be something closer to androids. Or Borg.

[Song]

Well, we could talk about what would need to happen for mankind to ever change

from being driven by 'hatred, greed and envy' to being driven by 'compassion, love

and charity' instead, but that would be kinda offtopic, I guess?

 

Nevertheless it would be possible even without becoming borg (accidently though,

if changing into 'something better' would mean not being human anymore, I would

gladly do it).

It would only take a few generations of the 'right kind' of education.

Sadly this also makes it highly impossible since we humans don't even manage to

have a working system for one generation so yeah...

 

But well, gotta keep being optimistic, ey?

[Doom Shepherd]

Well, we could talk about what would need to happen for mankind to ever change

from being driven by 'hatred, greed and envy' to being driven by 'compassion, love

and charity' instead, but that would be kinda offtopic, I guess?

Nevertheless it would be possible even without becoming borg (accidently though,

if changing into 'something better' would mean not being human anymore, I would

gladly do it).

You can't have heads without tails. (Also, the word is "incidentally.")

 

It would only take a few generations of the 'right kind' of education.

I believe the correct word is "brainwashing."

 

But well, gotta keep being optimistic, ey?

Yes, I continue to hold out the hope that people who don't understand things like math and economics and basic human behavior will someday not be put in charge of nations.

[BTGBullseye]

What would give YOU the right to expel a "governmentalist"? Isn't that a form of government?

I didn't say I'd use any military forces, I said I'd do it personally. Retains the Anarchy.

 

But well, gotta keep being optimistic, ey?

Yes, I continue to hold out the hope that people who don't understand things like math and economics and basic human behavior will someday not be put in charge of nations.

Quite...

[Song]

Well, we could talk about what would need to happen for mankind to ever change

from being driven by 'hatred, greed and envy' to being driven by 'compassion, love

and charity' instead, but that would be kinda offtopic, I guess?

Nevertheless it would be possible even without becoming borg (accidently though,

if changing into 'something better' would mean not being human anymore, I would

gladly do it).

You can't have heads without tails. (Also, the word is "incidentally.")

 

It would only take a few generations of the 'right kind' of education.

I believe the correct word is "brainwashing."

 

But well, gotta keep being optimistic, ey?

Yes, I continue to hold out the hope that people who don't understand things like math and economics and basic human behavior will someday not be put in charge of nations.

 

I guess we just have to differ on that.

Cheers for the hint!

[danielsangeo]

What would give YOU the right to expel a "governmentalist"? Isn't that a form of government?

I didn't say I'd use any military forces, I said I'd do it personally. Retains the Anarchy.

 

I didn't say the use of military forces, either. You are expelling someone else. That is a form of government. So, expel yourself.

 

This is why an anarchic system can never work. It requires a governmental-style force to keep the anarchy and, in doing so, would paradoxically destroy itself in the process.

[ProHypster]

I think one specific anarchy is not a lack of government but the transitional state of 2 governments... like in Civilization . It has been observed many times.

 

But I think there is lots of different theories of anarchy we haven;t ovserved on a large scale, with the general idea being that there is no "head", statesmen and society movement or someone ordering people around. In general I think the idea is there is no "society" but only individual people who trade which reminds of a state which sounds like communism with a capitalist economy.

 

It's almost like living in a castle except without a king and taxes, everyone has a job that is non-governmental but personal. Fishermen sell directly to people who need fish not companies.

[BTGBullseye]

What would give YOU the right to expel a "governmentalist"? Isn't that a form of government?

I didn't say I'd use any military forces, I said I'd do it personally. Retains the Anarchy.

 

I didn't say the use of military forces, either. You are expelling someone else. That is a form of government. So, expel yourself.

 

This is why an anarchic system can never work. It requires a governmental-style force to keep the anarchy and, in doing so, would paradoxically destroy itself in the process.

Expelling someone else from an area has absolutely noting to do with government, look up the definition yourself.

 

I maintain the anarchy by doing it myself, my way, without regard to anyone else's opinions.

[Koockaburra101]

I would like to ask:

 

What do you call a society that completely abolishes the state (that is, no governing body whatsoever) but also abolishes capitalism (no private ownership)?

 

Sounds like Anarcho-Communism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

 

Or Anarcho-Collectivism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-collectivism

 

Or possibly Anarcho-Syndicalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism

[Michael Archer]

Walmart doesn't even technically exist. It has no form. It has no shape. It is completely intangible

 

Juts because it's intangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't understand your reasoning.

 

I would like to ask:

 

What do you call a society that completely abolishes the state (that is, no governing body whatsoever) but also abolishes capitalism (no private ownership)?

 

That's not possible; how do you abolish capitalism without there being a state? Who's to enforce the "no private ownership" thing?

 

There is no "other" option, I personally support technocracy, a system where decisions are made by experts in relevant fields.

 

I do not want to live in a society, the basis of which is the Argument from Authority fallacy.

 

An Anarchy country... I could live there... Doom would be welcome...

 

Any governmentalist would be expelled by me.

 

Could you really?

 

Could you really sleep at night in fear, knowing that the next thug who didn't like you would be free to kick down the door to your house and murder you? Could you really sleep knowing that your life is subject to the first brute who encounters you?

 

I couldn't.

[ProHypster]

 

Could you really sleep at night in fear, knowing that the next thug who didn't like you would be free to kick down the door to your house and murder you? Could you really sleep knowing that your life is subject to the first brute who encounters you?

 

I couldn't.

 

Basically Live like Vikings..... YEEAAAH!

 

[BTGBullseye]

Could you really sleep at night in fear, knowing that the next thug who didn't like you would be free to kick down the door to your house and murder you? Could you really sleep knowing that your life is subject to the first brute who encounters you?

 

I couldn't.

Why fear death? Besides, I'm tougher than anyone who would ever want to kill me. (yes, even in my sleep)

 

Basically Live like Vikings..... YEEAAAH!

 

Yup. Love them Vikings...

[Song]

Could you really sleep at night in fear, knowing that the next thug who didn't like you would be free to kick down the door to your house and murder you? Could you really sleep knowing that your life is subject to the first brute who encounters you?

 

Anarchy doesn't necessarily has to be the chaos it is always attribute with.

There is also a good kind of it (as it probably is with any idea, over time they

just get corrupted by us).

But of course it is easier to put them all under 'pure chaos' because otherwise

they could be a serious threat to all authorities who would lose their job if the

people ever find out they could do without them, maybe even better.

 

Of course though, with the mindset and values we humans showed for the

last several millennia it will probably end in chaos.

Sadly so far we always needed someone to tell us exactly how to take a dump.

Leaders are kinda the parents of adults but without the maternal feelings which

always seem to end in them exploiting their adult-children.

 

On another note, the only difference to today would be that the thug is employed

by the brute and if you not subject your life to the brute, then the thug will kick

down the door to your house and murder you.

 

 

Why fear death? Besides, I'm tougher than anyone who would ever want to kill me. (yes, even in my sleep)

 

Good for you.

Most aren't though. That is why fear is such a great motivator.

[Michael Archer]

Song, the only "good" part of Anarchy I can think of is that you can manufacture tools and weapons you need to defend yourself. In many systems (e.g. Fascism, communism, socialism) you're forced to make those weapons for your attackers.

 

Human nature is incompatible with Anarchy. Men will always have legitimate and reasonable disputes. In Capitalism, the dispute is settled objectively by the court of law. In Anarchy, the dispute is settled through the subjective nature of an individual's whims.

 

Why fear death? Besides, I'm tougher than anyone who would ever want to kill me. (yes, even in my sleep)

 

Good for you, but despite what you might think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?start=52&v=jHgZh4GV9G0

 

If you are, then you're fit to live in Anarchy; not everyone is.

 

Basically Live like Vikings..... YEEAAAH!

 

Lemme go grab my dragon...

[ProHypster]

Just to comment on the "living in fear", well, I've always thought that if you speak the right way, act appropriately beforehand, have lots of "comrades" which are also not stupid or basically people who stick together for you and you for them and in situations were you still can't reason with the brute (which can happen maybe once in a life?), attack him first, or lay traps, than you should be fine.

 

To show how important connections are: I once happened to walk home drunk at night, and there were four people there, they tried to mug me, and one of them suddenly stopped them and said: "I know him, don't!" so they all sat back down. It turned out it was my neighbour (who is a minor thug) but I always keep ok relations with him.

 

I think if I'm ever getting killed I'll get killed by a psychopath. Since there is no reasoning with them and they can attack you in the most unexpected moment...