Xenophobia

[Heliocentrical]

I've been noticing quite a bit of Xenophobia lately. The US and EU in particular seem like they downright hate each other. When the EU passes a new policy I often hear how amazing the new policy is from the EU and that the US should implement a similar policy. Then the EU gives the US shit for not implementing a policy similar to the EU's. This seems like an incredibly passive aggressive way to convince another government to adopt a similar policies to your own. Has the EU ever considered that the US's citizens might have different priorities to theirs? Why can't individual governmental bodies respect each other's ability to govern their own country? All governmental bodies are pretty atrocious in my eyes. Are they trying to determine who's worse? What good will that accomplish?

 

I'm painting broad strokes here as I want to focus on xenophobia in general and not specific policies. Also I'm not deliberately defending the US. I'm just citing the conflict between the US and EU as an example. I'm sure the US has done some awful stuff to other countries too. Pretty much all governmental bodies have done terrible xenophobic things within their lifespan.

[UndeadNecro]

I never understood the whole "xenophobia" thing. Despite this being an easily arguable statement, it's kind of, y'know, true : We are of *the same race*. We are *all* human beings. The arguable part of that is basically culture, genetic variety and generally social differences between two countries that gets hated. That being said, there's no reason to think "Ew, those dirty frenchmen. They're so disgusting. It's like they're from another planet!" You kind of, y'know, have the same physiology so... What are you disgusted by? Do frenchmen have dirty habits? Are you afraid of their culture? Their religion? Their government? I don't get it. Unless they have directly harmed you somehow, there's no real reason to have a phobia of someone from another country. The whole "west vs. east" thing is ridiculous, too. Not to mention that it's usually a bullshit excuse when somebody says "I hate Germany!" instead of "I hate X person from Germany!" and gets called out for it.

 

Then there's the people that argue that xenophobia is to be taken metaphorical and not literally(which is kind of how it's supposed to be used because, well, it has a definition).

 

Anyways, not going to take a side. Xenophobia is everywhere.

[Fric]

I never understood the whole "xenophobia" thing. Despite this being an easily arguable statement, it's kind of, y'know, true : We are of *the same race*. We are *all* human beings. The arguable part of that is basically culture, genetic variety and generally social differences between two countries that gets hated. That being said, there's no reason to think "Ew, those dirty frenchmen. They're so disgusting. It's like they're from another planet!" You kind of, y'know, have the same physiology so... What are you disgusted by? Do frenchmen have dirty habits? Are you afraid of their culture? Their religion? Their government? I don't get it. Unless they have directly harmed you somehow, there's no real reason to have a phobia of someone from another country. The whole "west vs. east" thing is ridiculous, too. Not to mention that it's usually a bullshit excuse when somebody says "I hate Germany!" instead of "I hate X person from Germany!" and gets called out for it.

 

Then there's the people that argue that xenophobia is to be taken metaphorical and not literally(which is kind of how it's supposed to be used because, well, it has a definition).

 

Anyways, not going to take a side. Xenophobia is everywhere.

 

As a European I can say this - Xenophobia isn't that big of a problem in Europe between Europeans. On the other hand what drives Xenophobia in Europe is the immigration. E.g. Yes, people in UK or Ireland may not like Poles, but I doubt its Xenophobia. Without saying anything against a particular group - if we look at history - what are the main reasons for wars, conflicts, hate etc.? Its 2 main things: 1) strategic (e.g. war for valuable land, resources etc.); 2) cultural, religious, political differences.

 

Furthermore - how most countries have been forming over the centuries? Its mostly out of nationallity, similar culture. People have always choosen to form societies together with other people who are similar to them. So when you try put 2 very different cultures in one "house" - there will be problems. Before someone says - yes, in small numbers it works ok, because these people will eventually integrate succesfully (simply because there is no alternative). The bigger the number of new people are introduced the less succesful is the integration process. Than we see that - yes there are nice people, who work and adapt to their new environment. Than there are people who are somewhere in the midle - they adapt partially, work and everything is somewhat fine. But they still want keep their culture and would prefer that their different culture would make an impact in the local culture. And finally there are people who totally fail at integration - they choose to live in segregation, they refuse to learn local language, don't want to know anything about local customs etc - but everyone else has to learn their language and have to adapt to them...

 

No wonder we always hear about the troubled districts in cities. Granted, there are always poor people and criminals... But surely mass immigration of both war and economical refuguees in an already stagnating, high unemployment ridden European Union is disastrous. So together economical problems with immigration and problem of crime and segregation that comes with it - there is sure to be a lot of xenophobia... And after New years Eve at Cologne - I don't blame anyone for Xenophobia anymore...

 

 

Xenophobia between EU and USA?? What? That's something new for me...

[Vapymid]

Xenophobia between EU and USA?? What? That's something new for me...

 

That's new for me too... There's plenty of political and economic rivalry and governmental meddling but that's not xenophobia... Even when I roll my eyes and say "oh, those 'merkins" that's not xenophobia, either...

 

Regards

[Fric]

Xenophobia between EU and USA?? What? That's something new for me...

 

That's new for me too... There's plenty of political and economic rivalry and governmental meddling but that's not xenophobia... Even when I roll my eyes and say "oh, those 'merkins" that's not xenophobia, either...

 

Regards

 

Exactly - I was thinking the same thing...

[Heliocentrical]

That's new for me too... There's plenty of political and economic rivalry and governmental meddling but that's not xenophobia... Even when I roll my eyes and say "oh, those 'merkins" that's not xenophobia, either...

Regards

So what I was describing with EU demanding that the US have similar policies as they do isn't xenophobic? Sounds pretty accurate description of xenophobia. Attempting to override another government's control of their own ability to govern themselves because the way the US does it is foreign and strange to the EU. I've encountered people claiming to be Europeans who are basically saying that US should fall back in line and follow the EU's jurisdictions because they can't stand the way the US government runs things within their own country. The US is just as bad in similar regards too and I'm only sighting this as one example so I could focus on xenophobia as a whole and not by specific cases. What you're talking about are slight jabs at other people. Which are totally fine and harmless.

[Binky The Rabbit]

the way the US does it is foreign and strange to the EU.

I wouldn't use those words to describe it, however I can't really say what words to use as I'm not clued-up enough yet on the differences between EU and US policy.

 

My disdain for the US isn't xenophobic, but more a strong disagreement with how the country seems* to be dealing with itself. In that sense, it's not really my business, but at the same time the US is so powerful that it wouldn't be wise not to pay attention to what happens there.

 

On the other hand, every American I've met has been a lovely person, the opposite of what causes my critical feelings.

At this point, I remember that much of what I hear about America is the negative side - the absurdity of the American Far-right; the mass-unemployment and poverty, etc. To be fair, we have our own relative version of that here in the UK. I guess you could say my disdain for the US is much the same as my disdain for my home country!

 

As for EU V US - I wouldn't call the EU wanting the US to adopt similar policy xenophobic either. Taking a wild stab, I'd say it's more a case of "We feel they way we do things works well enough, and we feel you could benefit from following our lead". Considering 'my' government is asking for reform lest we vote on our membership, you can take from that statement what you will!

[Vapymid]

Attempting to override another government's control of their own ability to govern themselves

 

Geez, you are complaining about other countries doing it to the US? Ah... what sweet ignorance - you Americans are enchantingly oblivious of the world...

 

Because that's exactly what the US Government has been doing non-stop since the end of the World War II - meddling with other people's affairs. Interfering with their self-governance... And when other countries are simply trying to assert their position in trade or political negotiations - you think they are being xenophobic?

 

This is charming, indeed

 

Regards

[Descriptor]

Attempting to override another government's control of their own ability to govern themselves

 

Geez, you are complaining about other countries doing it to the US? Ah... what sweet ignorance - you Americans are enchantingly oblivious of the world...

 

Because that's exactly what the US Government has been doing non-stop since the end of the World War II - meddling with other people's affairs. Interfering with their self-governance... And when other countries are simply trying to assert their position in trade or political negotiations - you think they are being xenophobic?

 

This is charming, indeed

 

Regards

To be fair, we don't do it necessarily out of xenophobia.

 

We do it out of greed and lust for power.

[Fric]

That's new for me too... There's plenty of political and economic rivalry and governmental meddling but that's not xenophobia... Even when I roll my eyes and say "oh, those 'merkins" that's not xenophobia, either...

Regards

So what I was describing with EU demanding that the US have similar policies as they do isn't xenophobic? Sounds pretty accurate description of xenophobia. Attempting to override another government's control of their own ability to govern themselves because the way the US does it is foreign and strange to the EU. I've encountered people claiming to be Europeans who are basically saying that US should fall back in line and follow the EU's jurisdictions because they can't stand the way the US government runs things within their own country. The US is just as bad in similar regards too and I'm only sighting this as one example so I could focus on xenophobia as a whole and not by specific cases. What you're talking about are slight jabs at other people. Which are totally fine and harmless.

 

Well, Europe have Its laws and USA have their own laws. Is it really Xenophobic to ask that e.g. USA when dealing with EU countries abide by EU laws? That sounds like a normal practice - you go abroad, you are in that jurisdiction.

 

Or are there really cases of e.g. European Commission saying to USA that you should amend that domestic law or else we won't talk to you? Please provide with concrete examples than.

[Heliocentrical]

 

Well, Europe have Its laws and USA have their own laws. Is it really Xenophobic to ask that e.g. USA when dealing with EU countries abide by EU laws? That sounds like a normal practice - you go abroad, you are in that jurisdiction.

 

Or are there really cases of e.g. European Commission saying to USA that you should amend that domestic law or else we won't talk to you? Please provide with concrete examples than.

What about the EU's update on their Gun Control policy after the Paris attacks http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6110_en.htm? After the update I heard so many Europeans say how the US is terrible for not implementing a Gun Control policy similar to the EU's . This is what I'm talking about.

[Vapymid]

I heard so many Europeans say how the US is terrible for not implementing a Gun Control policy similar to the EU's . This is what I'm talking about.

 

That's not xenophobia. You are simply confusing the terms. That is simply a criticism of policies. That's all.

 

Plenty of reasonable Americans think that the US is terrible for not having proper gun controls.

 

Xenophobia = dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

 

Disagreement with your government policies is not prejudice against or dislike of your people.

 

Regards

Edited January 29, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Heliocentrical]

I heard so many Europeans say how the US is terrible for not implementing a Gun Control policy similar to the EU's . This is what I'm talking about.

 

That's not xenophobia. You are simply confusing the terms. That is a simple of criticism of policies. That's all.

 

Plenty of reasonable Americans think that the US is terrible for not having proper gun controls.

 

Xenophobia = dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

 

Disagreement with your government policies is not prejudice against or dislike of your people.

 

Regards

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. After you mentioned the difference I went to go find case of actual Xenophobia and the examples I found seem to fall under the category of racism too. Like for instance the Holocaust. So from what I understand the Holocaust is simultaneously racist and xenophobic. The Nazis hated the Jews because of their race and the Nazis also hated the Jews because they were strange and foreign to the Nazis. Is that correct? Though wouldn't something racist also be implicitly xenophobic and vice versa because there's something you find strange about a person's race? I'm kinda confused on this point.

[Vapymid]

Yes, I think you're right - racism and xenophobia are similar in nature. Intolerance and fear of differences... Only racism uses the race as the discriminating factor and xenophobia - foreign origin and culture. Xenophobia is probably a milder but wider spread issue than racism, though...

 

Nazis were racist and xenophobic, so were the Japanese. The Soviets were encouraged to be xenophobic towards nations outside of the Union, but not racist. Pretty much every isolationist regime is innately xenophobic, like the US before the World Wars...

 

Xenophobia is growing in Europe in the face of a large influx of migrants from a totally different cultural background. Same is happening in the US...

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

Because that's exactly what the US Government has been doing non-stop since the end of the World War II - meddling with other people's affairs.

Would you mind providing proof of that? Please don't try and use Vietnam, Korea, or Kosovo as examples, as those were requests from those governments for US assistance.

 

Also, just an FYI, Martin Luther (the one that was excommunicated from the Catholic church in the 1500's) was anti-semitic, which would technically fall under xenophobia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#Anti-Judaism_and_antisemitism

[Vapymid]

Well, how do I provide proof of that? Wait 60 years for archives be declassified, or something?

 

But trying to argue that something is not happening just because a formal proof is unavailable... that's a bit naive, isn't it?

 

Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries, Ukraine - all of those places where the US meddles ALL the time. Admittedly they are not the only nations to do that but they are one of the most powerful and unscrupulous. Oh, and once you mentioned - Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea, Kosovo. "By request", hehe... Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan by request of the then Afghani Government too...

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

Well, how do I provide proof of that? Wait 60 years for archives be declassified, or something?

 

But trying to argue that something is not happening just because a formal proof is unavailable... that's a bit naive, isn't it?

Ah, see now you're getting to the point that I usually do when others don't accept my sources... All I want is what evidence you believe points to the US government forcing other governments to do something they don't want to. (I can point to one right off the top of my head, the takedown of TPB, multiple times)

[Vapymid]

I don't know how to answer that question because in most cases the governments (the people in government, actually) are made to want it in a variety of ways (plenty of cash being the most obvious). And the governments in question are often only there because they are being propped up by the US - specifically to do what the US wants them to do.

 

Ukraine, Georgia, Iraq - these are examples I know of from people involved.

 

Afghanistan (present times), Vietnam, Taiwan - these are well known and obvious cases from open and declassified sources.

 

Afghanistan (Soviet times), Libya, Syria - there it's a reverse situation where the US is acting against the local government.

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

There is the problem however that you run into... Just because one government makes a deal with another, it doesn't actually force the opposing government to do anything. What would be a valid example of the USA forcing a government would be if the forced government was violating its own laws to do something. (like was the case with TPB, which violated absolutely no Swedish laws any of the times it was taken down, and none of it fell under US jurisdiction whatsoever)

[Vapymid]

Well, if it was on the mutual benefits basis - I would agree. But if you pay people in the other Government to do a deal with you which is against the interest of their country - formally, you are making what seems to be an arms-length deal but in essence it's corrupt.

 

Oh, the US is not the only one like that. No. All countries with global ambitions are playing these games. The US has most money, though, so bribes the most too

 

By the way - your example with TPB is good but Wikileaks and Assange is even better...

 

Regards