General American Politics Thread

[rairii]

2 hours ago, BTGBullseye said:

The fact is that it's exclusively a state governing issue for all of the Coronavirus issues. The President literally has no control over it whatsoever. If you have issues with how COVID was handled in the USA, look no further than the state governors. Anything the federal government does regarding COVID can land them in lawsuitland for decades, which is something they're trying to avoid.

Wow, that's a new one, saying the federal government and by extension the Trump administration are powerless to prevent disaster of this scale. That's... almost complete nonsense, actually. I'm curious about how you came to that conclusion in the first place. Show me your sources.

Calling it now: Conservative opinion piece on why a federal mask mandate would be unconstitutional.

2 hours ago, Im_CIA said:

No, they are collectivist, not a political system but a different frame of mind altogether. Americans are enterprising individualists, who are also spiteful and contradictory. We aren't keen on being told what to do by public authority figures, and those figures don't want to commit political suicide.

Collectivism and individualism are some of my favorite buzzwords, they're great at outing people as political illiterates. Not to say collectivism and individualism have no conceptual meaning, but god, "collectivist insect colonies"? Why have any nuanced understanding of complex economic and political dichotomies when you can just boil them down to extremely broad and vague terms that aren't even mutually exclusive to begin with?

 

Actually, there's a pretty common criticism of this exact line of thinking you might hear from socialists, if you ever take the time to hear one out:

The notion of socialism being a perfectly collectivist concept and capitalism being a perfectly individualist concept doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Take our late capitalist hellscape we're living in now for example. I don't know what your economic status is but I'm quite poor, not eligible for welfare despite being a bona fide head case, and my options for higher education are basically next to none. The system for someone like me is purely coercive, I work or I die, simple as. This simple fact means I don't get to enjoy the same personal liberties as an individual who makes $5k a year more than me, and that individual doesn't enjoy the same liberties as someone who makes $5k per year more than them, and so on. The poorer you are, the greater sacrifice you have to make to your personal individual autonomy to survive, and that arguably isn't very individualistic. That said, while I may be envious of that guy who makes 5k a year more than I do, we're all envious of that greedy asshole who sits at the very top, and that's what collectivism is for. When collectivist structures are introduced, they help level the playing field so more people can enjoy more individual liberty. Unions are a great example of this.

 

If you have the time, there's this great horror movie called "The Platform". It's a critique of capitalism and how economic class divides and alienates people and destroys lives.

 

TL;DR you can't be independent if your autonomy is infringed upon, and you can't prevent others from infringing upon your individual autonomy if you aren't part of a collective

[Mira]

12 hours ago, Im_CIA said:

some Asian countries are collectivist insect colonies.

New Zealand has held out a lot better against the virus despite being built on similar cultural foundations as the USA.

7 hours ago, BTGBullseye said:

The fact is that it's exclusively a state governing issue for all of the Coronavirus issues. The President literally has no control over it whatsoever. If you have issues with how COVID was handled in the USA, look no further than the state governors. Anything the federal government does regarding COVID can land them in lawsuitland for decades, which is something they're trying to avoid.

That's absurd; the Trump administration has seemingly done everything that is in its power to sabotage an effective COVID response. The president and the executive were aware of the danger of the virus early on but chose to deliberately downplay it as long as possible, in addition to denying the effectiveness of face masks, supporting lawsuits against state governors who did attempt to proactively combat the disease, bumbling the distribution of medical supplies to the states, and generally contributing to the politicization of the pandemic to the point where a lot of people see refusing on an individual basis to comply with measures to stop the spread of the virus as an act of support for their president.

[BTGBullseye]

4 hours ago, Annie said:

Wow, that's a new one, saying the federal government and by extension the Trump administration are powerless to prevent disaster of this scale. That's... almost complete nonsense, actually.

I see you're one of those that doesn't know how the USA is designed. The states have to directly ask for assistance from the federal government in the correct way, or any assistance/interference by the federal government provides can result in a state suing the federal government for extortionate amounts of money, and the state would win. EVEN IF IT WOULD HELP PEOPLE!

30 minutes ago, Mira said:

That's absurd; the Trump administration has seemingly done everything that is in its power to sabotage an effective COVID response.

Trump started out by saying that he could do nothing until the states requested it in the right way, and NO ONE CARED. It seems everyone thought it was a lie, or a trick, or something, or just completely forgot that he said that from the start. It doesn't matter what he said later, because IT'S NOT SOMETHING HE CAN CONTROL.

33 minutes ago, Mira said:

The president and the executive were aware of the danger of the virus early on but chose to deliberately downplay it as long as possible

Panic is bad, and considering how much panic happened for the previous coronavirus outbreaks that did effectively nothing, it wasn't a bad descision except in hindsight.

34 minutes ago, Mira said:

in addition to denying the effectiveness of face masks

That was all of the medical experts at the beginning of the outbreak, not just the politicians. Even Fauchi. You can probably find video of it if you're willing to dig through the shitstorm of anti-Trump propaganda it's now buried under.

37 minutes ago, Mira said:

supporting lawsuits against state governors who did attempt to proactively combat the disease

Which cases are you speaking of specifically?

37 minutes ago, Mira said:

bumbling the distribution of medical supplies to the states

Nothing new there... It took FEMA several days to get WATER to the superdome. That's not nearly as difficult to do as ventilators and quarantine equipment.

39 minutes ago, Mira said:

and generally contributing to the politicization of the pandemic to the point where a lot of people see refusing on an individual basis to comply with measures to stop the spread of the virus as an act of support for their president.

Some people are stupid. They still vote though, so ignoring them as a demographic can spell doom for a campaign. Trump doesn't ignore them, and he's the first to really do so.

 

That said, the politicization happened equally coming from both political parties, and many independants all at once. It was politicized because of how the boatful of tourists was handled, and it escalated from there. It never should've been politicized like that, but it was. The media loved it. The more political and divisive, the more money the media makes, so they will gently twist the reporting to favor one side or the other for different meanings, which had a far bigger effect with this particular issue. Once they got a taste of it, they never let it go.

[rairii]

4 hours ago, BTGBullseye said:

I see you're one of those that doesn't know how the USA is designed. The states have to directly ask for assistance from the federal government in the correct way, or any assistance/interference by the federal government provides can result in a state suing the federal government for extortionate amounts of money, and the state would win. EVEN IF IT WOULD HELP PEOPLE!

Dunno if you missed it but I did ask you to cite your sources. You still have yet to do so.

[Im_CIA]

On 10/25/2020 at 3:10 PM, Annie said:

Wow, that's a new one, saying the federal government and by extension the Trump administration are powerless to prevent disaster of this scale. That's... almost complete nonsense, actually. I'm curious about how you came to that conclusion in the first place. Show me your sources.

Calling it now: Conservative opinion piece on why a federal mask mandate would be unconstitutional.

Collectivism and individualism are some of my favorite buzzwords, they're great at outing people as political illiterates. Not to say collectivism and individualism have no conceptual meaning, but god, "collectivist insect colonies"? Why have any nuanced understanding of complex economic and political dichotomies when you can just boil them down to extremely broad and vague terms that aren't even mutually exclusive to begin with?

 

Actually, there's a pretty common criticism of this exact line of thinking you might hear from socialists, if you ever take the time to hear one out:

The notion of socialism being a perfectly collectivist concept and capitalism being a perfectly individualist concept doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Take our late capitalist hellscape we're living in now for example. I don't know what your economic status is but I'm quite poor, not eligible for welfare despite being a bona fide head case, and my options for higher education are basically next to none. The system for someone like me is purely coercive, I work or I die, simple as. This simple fact means I don't get to enjoy the same personal liberties as an individual who makes $5k a year more than me, and that individual doesn't enjoy the same liberties as someone who makes $5k per year more than them, and so on. The poorer you are, the greater sacrifice you have to make to your personal individual autonomy to survive, and that arguably isn't very individualistic. That said, while I may be envious of that guy who makes 5k a year more than I do, we're all envious of that greedy asshole who sits at the very top, and that's what collectivism is for. When collectivist structures are introduced, they help level the playing field so more people can enjoy more individual liberty. Unions are a great example of this.

 

If you have the time, there's this great horror movie called "The Platform". It's a critique of capitalism and how economic class divides and alienates people and destroys lives.

 

TL;DR you can't be independent if your autonomy is infringed upon, and you can't prevent others from infringing upon your individual autonomy if you aren't part of a collective

You know what, I think we are living in two different worlds. Each of us is a product of our environment, and if I was in your shoes I probably would have the same outlook.  But I'm going to fight for my world, and you can right for yours. 

[Mira]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:52 AM, BTGBullseye said:

Panic is bad, and considering how much panic happened for the previous coronavirus outbreaks that did effectively nothing, it wasn't a bad descision except in hindsight.

So you admit then that Trump's conduct was in fact of influence and that deliberately lying about the threat of the virus was a decision that turned out to be bad. I'd like to remind you that Trump knew as early as February 7 that COVID is "more deadly than even your strenuous flus"; simply recommending a change in people's behaviour, like other world leaders did in the early stages of the pandemic, could have slown down the spread of the infection.

On 10/26/2020 at 12:52 AM, BTGBullseye said:

That was all of the medical experts at the beginning of the outbreak, not just the politicians. Even Fauchi. You can probably find video of it if you're willing to dig through the shitstorm of anti-Trump propaganda it's now buried under.

At the beginning of the outbreak there was a lot of confusion about a new disease, but the CDC came around and has recommended face masks from April 3 onward. The WHO followed suit in June after evidence in Europe pointed to the efficacy of face masks. Trump didn't personally start wearing a mask until July, and even afterwards has continued to make fun of his political opponents who wear masks and accused them of weakness and wanting to appear politically correct. He has made wearing masks a partisan issue.

On 10/26/2020 at 12:52 AM, BTGBullseye said:

Which cases are you speaking of specifically?

In April the Justice Department threatened to take legal action against any states imposing strict anti-Covid measures, and followed up on its threat a month later by backing a lawsuit against the state of Michigan. Trump himself meanwhile didn't help matters, to put it mildly, by calling on his supporters to "liberate" Michigan and other states with similar lockdown policies, in spite of those policies being overwhelmingly supported by epidemiologists.

On 10/26/2020 at 12:52 AM, BTGBullseye said:

Nothing new there... It took FEMA several days to get WATER to the superdome. That's not nearly as difficult to do as ventilators and quarantine equipment.

The first case of COVID in the United States was reported on January 20, but only in mid-March did Trump order FEMA to lead the federal government's response to the disease and begin stockpiling medical supplies. The president put his own son-in-law, a man with no experience in epidemiology or organizing government action of this magnitude, in charge of a task force that was supposed to assist FEMA in identifying reliable sources of protective equipment but made numerous blunders and prioritized political loyalty over competence. The government's chaotic response combined with Kushner's warning that "the federal stockpile is supposed to be our stockpile" and not "the states' stockpile that they then use" led to states bidding against the federal government and each other in a desperate scramble for supplies. Trump called PPE shortages "fake news" and bluntly dismissed the concerns of governors like Cuomo, whose request for a sufficient number of ventilators when his state was the epicenter of the disease during the height of the first wave fell on deaf ears, before the president eventually complied after warning the governors to be "more appreciative".

On 10/26/2020 at 12:52 AM, BTGBullseye said:

the politicization happened equally coming from both political parties, and many independants all at once. It was politicized because of how the boatful of tourists was handled, and it escalated from there. It never should've been politicized like that, but it was. The media loved it. The more political and divisive, the more money the media makes, so they will gently twist the reporting to favor one side or the other for different meanings, which had a far bigger effect with this particular issue. Once they got a taste of it, they never let it go.

Politicization is inevitable; it's happened in pretty much every democracy that's been hit by the pandemic. However, in a healthy political environment the focus of the debate should simply be on whether the government is doing a good enough job preventing deaths and keeping infections under control, not on whether or not the disease is really as bad as all the evidence points out. In February, around 70% of both Democrats and Republicans agreed that COVID was "a real threat"; one month later, the percentage of Democrats had increased slightly while the percentage of Republicans had dropped to 40%.

 

[Im_CIA]

On 10/27/2020 at 3:49 PM, Mira said:

So you admit then that Trump's conduct was in fact of influence and that deliberately lying about the threat of the virus was a decision that turned out to be bad. I'd like to remind you that Trump knew as early as February 7 that COVID is "more deadly than even your strenuous flus"; simply recommending a change in people's behaviour, like other world leaders did in the early stages of the pandemic, could have slown down the spread of the infection.

At the beginning of the outbreak there was a lot of confusion about a new disease, but the CDC came around and has recommended face masks from April 3 onward. The WHO followed suit in June after evidence in Europe pointed to the efficacy of face masks. Trump didn't personally start wearing a mask until July, and even afterwards has continued to make fun of his political opponents who wear masks and accused them of weakness and wanting to appear politically correct. He has made wearing masks a partisan issue.

In April the Justice Department threatened to take legal action against any states imposing strict anti-Covid measures, and followed up on its threat a month later by backing a lawsuit against the state of Michigan. Trump himself meanwhile didn't help matters, to put it mildly, by calling on his supporters to "liberate" Michigan and other states with similar lockdown policies, in spite of those policies being overwhelmingly supported by epidemiologists.

The first case of COVID in the United States was reported on January 20, but only in mid-March did Trump order FEMA to lead the federal government's response to the disease and begin stockpiling medical supplies. The president put his own son-in-law, a man with no experience in epidemiology or organizing government action of this magnitude, in charge of a task force that was supposed to assist FEMA in identifying reliable sources of protective equipment but made numerous blunders and prioritized political loyalty over competence. The government's chaotic response combined with Kushner's warning that "the federal stockpile is supposed to be our stockpile" and not "the states' stockpile that they then use" led to states bidding against the federal government and each other in a desperate scramble for supplies. Trump called PPE shortages "fake news" and bluntly dismissed the concerns of governors like Cuomo, whose request for a sufficient number of ventilators when his state was the epicenter of the disease during the height of the first wave fell on deaf ears, before the president eventually complied after warning the governors to be "more appreciative".

Politicization is inevitable; it's happened in pretty much every democracy that's been hit by the pandemic. However, in a healthy political environment the focus of the debate should simply be on whether the government is doing a good enough job preventing deaths and keeping infections under control, not on whether or not the disease is really as bad as all the evidence points out. In February, around 70% of both Democrats and Republicans agreed that COVID was "a real threat"; one month later, the percentage of Democrats had increased slightly while the percentage of Republicans had dropped to 40%.

 

It's pointless to argue. Politicians have taken on a chameleon form to reach specific demographics. Their stance on Issues that voters find most pertinent lead to rationalizing everything else.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Im_CIA (see edit history)

[Eshanas]

To the surprise of both no one, and everyone, the polls were wrong, Biden got no real swing states, and the map basically looks like 2016 2.0.

 (Source: The Guardian, as of c. 0415 AM Nov-4th).

 

Trump has declared he will take the count to the supreme court and that counting should stop immediately. Pence tried to backtrack this, saying all 'legally whatever votes' will be counted, but no one listens to Pence, so that's as good as dirt.

 

+10 in the polls might as well be +1.

 

And as always 100,000,000 Americans decided to not vote this year, at all. Neither candidate has more than 70 million votes, out of an electorate in the 240,000,000 range. Thankfully however it does seem third parties were absolutely trashed, as they should be in this winner-take-all system.

 

In the Senate race, the Republicans maintain their control, with both apparently hated Mitch McConnel and Lindsey Graham flying back into their seats.

 

In the House race, no one cares, as the House is useless. The Squad got re-elected.

 

This is the absolute worst case scenario for Biden. Even losing handily would had been better, as the institutions of the Republic wouldn't be made a mockery of in a stacked court. But now even if Biden somehow gets 269, 270, or 271 EC, it'll go to the courts, every state will have a recount, mailed in votes will probably be thrashed, and either Pence or ABC will be the deciding factor when the electors come to call. And even if, somehow, Biden gets into the Oval Office, it'll be with a Republican Senate. Don't even think about the Supreme Court, the Democrats are in no position to either amend it or pack it or expand it or whatever, even in their best case scenarios. Which...this isn't. This was a absolute flounder for the Democratic Party.

Violence and rioting is near non-existent as everyone went home hours ago but we'll see how this will boil over in the coming days. I took work off for yesterday and today, good call on my part I figure. And hey. 100th post. Couldn't be fitting enough....

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Eshanas (see edit history)

[Im_CIA]

Yes, yes. Well done Trump, well done Trump.... HOWEVER

[ekket]

Election results at the time of posting (via The Wall Street Journal):

 

On 11/4/2020 at 11:13 AM, Eshanas said:

And as always 100,000,000 Americans decided to not vote this year, at all. Neither candidate has more than 70 million votes, out of an electorate in the 240,000,000 range. Thankfully however it does seem third parties were absolutely trashed, as they should be in this winner-take-all system.

Biden now has over 70 million votes, as shown on the image above.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by ekket
Fix twitter embed (see edit history)

[Im_CIA]

It comes down to Nevada, and whether or not any of Trump's reactionary lawsuits actually stick. Also Pennsylvania might tip over. 

[kerdios]

1 hour ago, ekket said:

Space, that is some bad/lazy math, would it kill that jerk to either put a% after the numbers or move the decimal point to the beginning of the number?

Edited November 5, 2020 by kerdios
reduced image size (see edit history)

[BTGBullseye]

5 hours ago, kerdios said:

Space, that is some bad/lazy math, would it kill that jerk to either put a% after the numbers or move the decimal point to the beginning of the number?

 

Character limits.

[Im_CIA]

What the fuck were those idiots thinking in cutting off Trump's speech?

It doesn't matter if he was spewing complete bullshit, denying him a platform almost legitimizes his message in the eyes of his camp.

[Im_CIA]

Congratulations to President Elect Biden. I didn't vote for him, but I hope he does a good job

[kerdios]

So how long until all the overseas military votes arrive and are counted?
Also, how many troops are from Georgia?

Edited November 6, 2020 by kerdios (see edit history)

[Im_CIA]

3 minutes ago, kerdios said:

Also, how many troops are from Georgia?

 

yes

[Im_CIA]

So why did Biden livestream a pre recorded speech at a car dealership?

[kerdios]

So if Biden finally wins (and it sure looks like he will), which of trumps decisions do you think he will rescind? Medicare? israel embasy move to jerusalem? gun printing ban? F35 sale to the UAE? cancelling EPA? net neutrality?

[Im_CIA]

Hopefully he'll reverse Trump's policy of inaction around the riots and crack some microcephaly skulls.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Im_CIA (see edit history)