General American Politics Thread

[Epsilon]

Just passing through and decided to comment on a few things here that are of personal interest.

 

DRUGS like Prozac and Xanax that have time and time again influenced the killers of these mass shootings.

 

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that Prozac and Xanax are used to treat disorders from which mass shooters commonly suffer. That said, instead of blaming the drugs, I would first look at why the shooter is taking them in the first place. It's not as though benzos or antidepressants completely strip you of your moral inhibitions. I can't say whether you're implying that these drugs are a cause of antisocial personality disorder, but I am fairly confident that it's common for mass shooters to exhibit antisocial traits. Killing someone in a fit of passion is a very different thing from a premeditated mass shooting, and I doubt that drugs alone would create the psychological conditions needed for a person to carry through with such a thing. The causes of antisocial personality disorder are almost entirely unknown, and largely subject to speculation; I'd need some serious convincing to believe that two particular drugs were the cause.

 

There was a story some time ago about a man who was convicted for the murder of his wife while marijuana was in his system. Naturally, some were quick to hold marijuana accountable, but the police report mentioned that the suspect had empty pill bottles in his room. Withdrawal from some other drug seems to be a likelier explanation. Of course, you could say that makes your point concerning Prozac and Xanax, but who knows how he would've behaved independent of the pills? Considering what happened here, I think it's best not to immediately blame the drugs as the root cause.

 

The worst side effect for either drug I could find was suicidal ideation.

 

(7) CLAMP DOWN ON EXTREMIST IDEOLOGIES that have a high correlation of violence. This is primarily Islamic Fundementalism/Islamofascism , the Alt-Left ( ANTIFA ), Communists/Anarcho-Communists , Atheism Plus , and Racialists like BLM , & the KKK (If they even exist anymore? They're outdated)

 

Just to clarify, how would you propose that be done? Censoring extremist ideologies would only drive them underground and allow them to fester, as opposed to allowing them to be openly debated. I do think there should be hate speech laws, specifically against inciting violence, but outlawing anything less than that sets an awfully dangerous precedent. If you're referring to simply arresting everyone associated with those groups, I think that's more dangerous (McCarthyist, even). I have friends on Facebook who regularly post, share, Like, etc. content associated with BLM. The thought of that being enough for them to even be suspected of being accomplice to a violent crime is terrifying.

 

Make themselves create an iron clad thick skin that will prevent them from being taken advantage of, and will allow them to wash off offensive words and names like it's nothing.

 

I think this oversimplifies just how inescapable bullying can be. The fact that someone would become willing to kill others and/or themselves purely because of repeated words, threats, physical bullying, etc. indicates that the problem extends beyond them being a "special snowflake." Repetition is the key word here; something as simple as Chinese water torture is effective even in an experimental environment because the constant dripping eventually becomes unbearable. How much easier would it be for repeated bullying to drive someone insane?

 

(8) Spread this message so we can make some change for once, instead of wallowing about how America is full of shootings and waiting for the next one.

 

Well, we agree on this much.

[dashofweak]

So one thing i don't understand is this:

I keep reading about how "awful" antifa is but whenever i actually look for anything Antifa has actually done it boils down to two things:

1. Doxing of Neo-nazis (which it's hard to care about because, well their nazis) but sometimes misidentify the wrong person (which is a problem)

2. Violence in protests (But it seems like wherever they are, more violence is directed TOWARDS them, and they respond in self-defense)

Really, that's it. I haven't found a single murder by an antifa member or a bombing, or even PLANS to bomb or murder.

 

Then, I take a look at the alt-right and holy cow.

Murder

Harrassment

Dox

Threats

Attempted Bombings

Mass Shootings

Attempted murder

Violence

 

The list goes on and on. But people still insist that Antifa and the Alt-right are similar...but they really aren't.

[rairii]

So one thing i don't understand is this:

I keep reading about how "awful" antifa is but whenever i actually look for anything Antifa has actually done it boils down to two things:

1. Doxing of Neo-nazis (which it's hard to care about because, well their nazis) but sometimes misidentify the wrong person (which is a problem)

2. Violence in protests (But it seems like wherever they are, more violence is directed TOWARDS them, and they respond in self-defense)

Really, that's it. I haven't found a single murder by an antifa member or a bombing, or even PLANS to bomb or murder.

 

Then, I take a look at the alt-right and holy cow.

Murder

Harrassment

Dox

Threats

Attempted Bombings

Mass Shootings

Attempted murder

Violence

 

The list goes on and on. But people still insist that Antifa and the Alt-right are similar...but they really aren't.

White supremacists and nationalists make up the bulk of domestic terrorists today. The worst you can say for ANTIFA is rioting, but I can't be upset about the rioting when it's in the context of opposing this country's fucked up government.

As far as I'm concerned, if your enemy is an anti-fascist group, you need to re-think what side you're on.

[Selous Templar]

Antifa are the REAL fascists in all but name.

Wasn't it Winston Churchill that said "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists"?

 

And I find it hilarious how you not only correlate white nationalism with white supremacy (even though they are completely different things) but have the nerve to say that they make up the bulk of domestic terrorists.

The most common form of domestic terrorism is Islamic Terrorism, and then it's Communist Terrorism in No.2, and that's exactly what antifa are: Communist domestic terrorists.

Blackshirt fascists that would make Benito Mussolini proud at how socialistic they are.

They use the same tactics as the black shirts, they dress in black, they damage property, they label all their enemies (meaning anyone who isn't a communist) as "fascist" to justify their political violence, and they want to destroy the establishment.

Qv-4Pxe8Dz8

Just because you hate the Alt-Right doesn't mean you are suddenly morally superior by siding with bloody COMMUNISTS.

 

They're BOTH terrible ideologies. Don't make excuses for one side just because you might have a bias against one side.

 

I don't see the Alt-Right going around beating people up for different opinions, or smashing innocent people over the head with bike locks, or destroying public property, or planning terrorist attacks:

RmNz2jGzsDA

The only dirt on the alt-right is Charlottesville, and even then, they turned up to protest peacefully. If antifa didn't turn up, violence would not have happened.

 

Also find it funny how Antifa claim to be fighting "against" the establishment, when they are not only communists, but are supporters of the Democrats, which literally IS the establishment party in America at the moment.

 

Both sides are terrible, and no one should be making excuses for EITHER side.

[rairii]

Antifa are the REAL fascists in all but name.

Wasn't it Winston Churchill that said "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists"?

 

And I find it hilarious how you not only correlate white nationalism with white supremacy (even though they are completely different things) but have the nerve to say that they make up the bulk of domestic terrorists.

The most common form of domestic terrorism is Islamic Terrorism, and then it's Communist Terrorism in No.2, and that's exactly what antifa are: Communist domestic terrorists.

Blackshirt fascists that would make Benito Mussolini proud at how socialistic they are.

They use the same tactics as the black shirts, they dress in black, they damage property, they label all their enemies (meaning anyone who isn't a communist) as "fascist" to justify their political violence, and they want to destroy the establishment.

A one-liner from an imperialist isn't an argument. I think it's a little ironic to call a group that takes protest to a level that ANTIFA does a "fascist" group, especially without backing yourself up. The entire premise of fascism is authoritarianism and nationalism, neither of which are values that anarcho-communists hold. Take a wild guess what ANTIFA is? That's right, an ancom group.

 

I never said white nationalists and white supremacists were the same, but they are similar. One's a racist, one's a racist that's a little more honest about their views. The actual differences are a bit more nuanced but in the end they're irrelevant at best. That is to say, one group prefers a fascist ethnostate and one group is more broad and encompassing.

And Mussolini? Proud of socialism? You do realize he actually described fascism as a merger of state and corporate, something that socialists and communists alike are strictly against? That really should go without saying.

It's so unbelievably common for folks to argue that Nazis were socialists, or to disavow fascism and call it left wing, even though those are both factually wrong and can be proven so by opening a textbook. It's essentially pointing to the left and saying "I know you are but what am I?" Take a good long look at the group that called themselves national socialists. They rounded up Jewish people, stripped them of their rights, and eventually executed them all on the premise that they were causing trouble for the working class, which is what the party was almost entirely comprised of and in support for. Tell me, does that sound nationalist or socialist? And let me ask you a better question. If Nazi Germany was socialist and yet managed to bring Germany out of the worst economic depression of its time, then does that mean Socialism works in practice or that Nazi Germany wasn't socialist? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

Qv-4Pxe8Dz8

I would just like to say, Sargon isn't exactly a paragon of intellectual honesty. In his defense it's not exactly easy to make a perfect hour-long informational piece and cutting corners is only human, but that's pretty much all I can say for him. He's a generic reactionary who makes generic reactionary opinion pieces, and his practices in doing so aren't exactly fantastic. Ideally the best way to write a informational piece is to go in as unbiased as possible, which means you will read over your sources and findings and shape your message accordingly. He doesn't do that. What he does is effectively confirmation bias. He'll go look for a source without reading through it and essentially use it as a tool for his narrative. Folks from his neck of the woods aren't people I look up to for smart political commentary, but at least some of them can gracefully admit to being wrong.

 

Just because you hate the Alt-Right doesn't mean you are suddenly morally superior by siding with bloody COMMUNISTS.

 

They're BOTH terrible ideologies. Don't make excuses for one side just because you might have a bias against one side.

 

I don't see the Alt-Right going around beating people up for different opinions, or smashing innocent people over the head with bike locks, or destroying public property, or planning terrorist attacks:

RmNz2jGzsDA

 

I'll defend communism when it comes to misinformation regarding it, even if I'm not a communist. Forgive me for not hating a system that's still in its infancy and hasn't had the time or opportunity to grow with the United States constantly trying to suffocate it. You can attribute the mass murder under Stalin to communism all you want, but don't forget Trotzky and Lenin existed. You can attribute Soviet corruption to communism all you want, but don't forget that it had no prior example to go by and that the United States TODAY is corrupt. You can attribute whatever you want to communism, but I'm not going to take you seriously on the matter unless you understand the context and reasoning.

 

If you want to compare the behavior of the alt-right to the behavior of ANTIFA, at least realize you're comparing a blanket statement to an ancom revolutionary group that wants to uproot the establishment. I think ANTIFA is protesting appropriately considering what they are. I'm not anti-revolutionary so naturally I don't hate ANTIFA. Hell, with the corruption in our government and the constantly growing divide in politics, I think it's inevitable that a revolution will probably happen if things don't start dying down, and I think that's in line with what the founding fathers would've wanted. Here's hoping I'm in Canada by then to avoid that mess.

 

And Steven Crowder? Really? Do you only follow and listen to reactionaries? Are you going to tell me next that you watch PragerU?

 

The only dirt on the alt-right is Charlottesville, and even then, they turned up to protest peacefully. If antifa didn't turn up, violence would not have happened.

 

Also find it funny how Antifa claim to be fighting "against" the establishment, when they are not only communists, but are supporters of the Democrats, which literally IS the establishment party in America at the moment.

 

Both sides are terrible, and no one should be making excuses for EITHER side.

 

Did you forget about Dylan Roof? Wade Page? The Planned Parenthood shooter? Proper statistics on attacks and motivation are difficult to find but there is consistent information that right wing terror happens with greater frequency. Death toll is disputed but the only thing that would put Islamic terror over right wing terror is the Pulse shooting. That's discounting the fact that several of the biggest domestic terror events like the Las Vegas shooting don't even have information on the shooter's motives.

 

And yes, ANTIFA is anti-establishment as I've explained earlier. You may not know this, but not everyone on the left identifies with the democratic party. I voted against Hillary because I don't like liberalism, or the DNC, or their agenda, because they're capitalistic. Bernie is an inspiration to me for running against a capitalistic establishment in a capitalist party for a capitalist country. He's a man who recognizes the core of inequality and isn't afraid to challenge it even if that is to his own detriment. Before politics he was a civil rights activist, and I strongly believe all of this makes him a man of integrity. ANTIFA may support the democratic party, but only out of necessity. They're the reliable option for left wingers.

[Epsilon]

Don't make excuses for one side just because you might have a bias against one side.

 

The only dirt on the alt-right is Charlottesville, and even then, they turned up to protest peacefully. If antifa didn't turn up, violence would not have happened.

 

wat?

 

Also, if you still have any quibbles as to the distinction between socialism and fascism, I'd recommend looking here. Privatizing motorways and life insurance of all things is the antithesis of socialism. I'm not arguing that all capitalists are fascists, but it's just as absurd to say that socialism and fascism operate under the same economic principles. I've heard socialism likened to both communism and fascism, often by the same person in a single conversation. It cannot be both.

 

“Regarding the economy we are explicitly antisocialist… I will give the railways and the telegraphs back to private hands, because the current state of things is outrageous and vulnerable in all its parts. The ethical State is not the monopolistic State, the bureaucratic State, but the one which reduces its functions to what is strictly necessary. We are against the economic State.”

 

Because it's such a common misconception, I'd also like to emphasize that most left-leaning Democrats in America (Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard, myself) are social democrats, not socialists. If you're still insistent on likening socialists to fascists, I'd at least request that you keep that distinction in mind.

 

ANTIFA may have some common ground with the Democratic Party, but there are still very clear differences (especially when you factor in New Democrats like Clinton or Obama who are best described as center-right on economic issues).

[dashofweak]

This is exactly what i'm talking about TBH from Selous Templar.

 

Antifa really hasn't done that much bad, especially when compared to hard right groups. Yet here are people trying to claim that this very loose collection of people (who aren't a real organisation) who use the same tactics that multiple left-wing groups historically did when they were faced with the rise of fascism in the 30's (such as in France) are demonised to a ridiculous degree.

 

The only reason Antifa groups exist is because fascist groups (Who literally wave nazi flags, try to invoke nazi imagery, and want to establish an enthnostate, like the nazis) are rising up in the US. So, these groups counter-protest and can get a bit violent at times (while being shot at: https://thinkprogress.org/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-arrested-74f10096a721/) show up and people scream and shriek that they're JUST AS BAD as the LITERAL NAZIS that are trying to incite hateful messages and violent crimes.

 

It doesn't make sense to me, at times it feels like the right in the US are granted WAY more leeway than the left in the US.

[Selous Templar]

Antifa really hasn't done that much bad,

 

Yeah I'm done here.

 

Un-fucking-believable

[rairii]

Antifa really hasn't done that much bad,

 

Yeah I'm done here.

 

Un-fucking-believable

 

Just like a true reactionary.

 

Next time if you want to put up an argument against something, I think the best place to start would be the actual argument.

[Selous Templar]

Next time if you want to put up an argument against something, I think the best place to start would be the actual argument.

 

Next time don't back the anarcho-communist bourgeoisie hypocrites and call me a "true reactionary" for hating them like any logical and sane individual would do.

[Templar Knight]

I'd be far more worried about Antifa than any Nazi groups in the US, and world-wide.

 

If alone for no other reason than actual Nazis will grow in number because Antifa remains unchallenged. Many Alt-Right members have spoken about how if it weren't for the behaviour of groups like Antifa, they'd never have gained the followings they have, which are continuing to grow the longer they keep up their current tactics.

 

I've seen Antifa show up to protest numerous Free Speech rallies in different areas across the US because they automatically assume: "Oh you're all Nazis because you protect the rights of Nazis to speak.", meanwhile they don't seem to understand that the best way to stop the growth of extremist ideologies is by actually having open debate and breaking apart their ideas to make them look like morons. For some reason they seem to want to promote underground echo-chambers of extremists to grow to critical mass because they're incapable of intellectually beating them in a way that's calm and composed.

 

Styxhexenhammer666 has been in debates with Alt-Right figures like Jared Taylor, when Styx asked Taylor to explain how exactly HE intended to make a white ethnostate out of the US without violence or civil war, Taylor couldn't give a response, he ignored Styx's direct question, and Styx was one of the few people of the night who actually came out looking very good. But yet Styx is called a Nazi-supporter because he DARED to enter a debate against a member of the Alt-Right.

 

The entire state of California basically gives Antifa chapters carte-blanche by doing fuck-all to stop them at rallies they bust into, or after the various cult-like stories that come out of the groups and how they treat people who "want out" of their chapter and nothing is done to the groups themselves.

 

Germany has THOUSANDS of Antifa members that have at least minor political endorsement by official parties, and were literally able to besiege the city the G20 meetings were taking place, beating up anyone who they could find was even vaguely associated with "Nazis" and cause a ton of property damage.

 

Meanwhile you see some Democrats waving around the Antifa handbook as good reading material, that was before Fire and Fury came out. You seen many of the Right in the US waving around Mein Kampf copies? The literal Nazi handbook? I certainly haven't.

 

I've also seen the comparisons made between the original Italian Fascists and ANTIFA, they're eerily similar. Both love their black clothing. Both are very authoritarian in their demands and how they seek to carry out their actions. Both love arson and beating up opponents in mobs. Both claim to be socialists, and love political activism. And both are against the idea of Free Speech.

 

Fascists or Nazis folks, take your pick. I'd be more worried about the former before the latter in your American politics right now. Despite all the Charlottesville harangues (While being incredibly stupid in their form of protest, not all of them were Racists or Nazis or what have you), I don't see any great resurgence in Klansmen numbers, or actual Neo-Nazis rising to power. Fuck, the few that have any kind of public voice at all are critiquing Trump because he's not being a complete racist.

 

But EVERYWHERE you look I guarantee you'll find some kind of group favouring Antifa or groups akin to it, or are otherwise too spineless to call them out on their own hypocrisy. Better to serve Fascists than Nazis, I suppose.

[rairii]

Next time if you want to put up an argument against something, I think the best place to start would be the actual argument.

 

Next time don't back the anarcho-communist bourgeoisie hypocrites and call me a "true reactionary" for hating them like any logical and sane individual would do.

I'll back them all I want because you haven't actually provided an argument to why I shouldn't. At this point you're just flinging shit at us for having a different opinion and not even bothering to argue your point of view. If you don't want to argue that's fine, just don't expect us to take you seriously when you respond like a reactionary.

[dashofweak]

Look, I keep hearing sweeping generalities when it comes to what antifa actually does that's bad. Because, here's the thing, i've spoken with people who ARE antifa and asked them all these questions and what they're doing and so on a so forth. They weren't secretive, they told me what they wanted (which was "make such nazis don't rise to power again), and were very up front.

 

I tried the same thing with someone who i knew was alt-right and once I started to really probe them they started insulting me, personally attacking me, was super dismissive of my actual concerns, and once it was clear i didn't agree with him became a total asshole.

 

This may be just my personal experince, and I somehow picked two people who are entirely representative of their groups, but wow i have no reason to change my belief that the alt-right is far worse than antifa.

 

And yeah, they're a bit heavy handed, but that's nothing compared to what's thrown at them. Remember when during the Charlottesville rally antifa lit torches, ran people over with cars, and shot at people?

 

Oh wait, I don't, because it was the alt-right that did all of that. The worst you can say about antifa really is that they occasionally target the wrong person with their doxing, but if even ONE murder was committed by antifa at a rally we'd never hear the end of it. So instead to demonize this group who's SOUL PURPOSE is to make sure Nazis don't rise to power again, people have to make very general statements or not even debate with the points being presented.

 

Such as

Yeah I'm done here.

 

Un-fucking-believable

 

or

 

For some reason they seem to want to promote underground echo-chambers of extremists to grow to critical mass because they're incapable of intellectually beating them in a way that's calm and composed.

 

and here's something specifically i want to touch on.

 

meanwhile they don't seem to understand that the best way to stop the growth of extremist ideologies is by actually having open debate and breaking apart their ideas to make them look like morons.

 

Two things i want to talk to about this: For one, debate isn't the end all be all for destroying REALLY DANGEROUS ideologies, like fascism. Debates only work if both parties come into the discussion with good faith. And Nazis do NOT enter debates in good faith. They WANT to debate not because they want to inform themselves or come to the best ideas, but because they want to spread their message AND intimidate people who they target.

 

If someone says, "I think Cultural Marxism is destroying the west because of a jewish conspiracy to destroy the white race, therefore we need a white ethnostate" then I heavily doubt any amount of debate is going to change that persons mind. Sure, they may seem like morons, but these people are going to make themselves as watered down and "presentable" as possible.

 

They aren't going to say what i just said, they'll use dogwhistles and very "acceptable" language to try to spread their message to as many people as possible, maybe without those people even realizing that the ideas they repeat are dogwhistles. And trust me, once you pick up on the dogwhistles (which in my case i feel like i have to because if the alt-right ever do rise to power i'm a pretty big target for them) they're very easy to notice. And when some is in a university, spouting hidden message after hidden message, it's designed to also silence people who would be abused by the alt-right via intimidation.

 

So, rather than fall into the useless trap of debate with people who won't change their minds and are trying to sneak in fascist ideas into the minds of ordinary people (why do you think crypto-fascists is a term) Antifa instead seeks to show that those types of messages aren't tolerable.I haven't watched the debate but i'm guessing Styxhexenhammer666 wasn't criticized for being a nazi sympathizer, but because he's unintentionally spreading the fascist agenda.

 

And this:

Meanwhile you see some Democrats waving around the Antifa handbook as good reading material

 

Can i see some actual evidence of this please? Because Antifa isn't an organized political group, I don't think they HAVE a "handbook" the only thing I saw was a book from 2017 by one guy (not put out by any organization or leader of any organization) that's about the history and tactics of historical antifa groups. You know, the ones that fought fascists in the streets because there really was a huge rise of fascist sympathizers? Same as today?

 

I don't see any great resurgence in Klansmen numbers, or actual Neo-Nazis rising to power

 

Buddy, have you not been paying attention to anything? There are far more hard-right groups and members today than 4 years ago. The whole reason for the Charlottesville rally was because of a "Unite the Right" movement where hard-right groups from all over the US were trying to work together to spread their hate messages.

 

In short, when you take a look at the crimes commited by antifa and their very purpose for existing (which is to be anti-fascists) vs. the crimes of alt-righters and their purpose for exsiting (which seems to be "white power") then the hatred and demonization of antifa just doesn't make sense to me. If antifa had committed HALF the murders the alt-right did, I'd be more understanding, but I haven't found one murder at the hands of antifa.

 

The only thing they as a whole seem to hate are fascists, and it's hard to feel any sympathy towards fascists in my opinion

[BTGBullseye]

https://medium.com/@annaliszt/fact-checking-the-antifa-international-list-of-violent-crimes-in-2017-part-1-7b31a87394d5

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/this-list-of-attacks-against-conservatives-is-mind-blowing/

https://www.attacksontrumpsupporters.com/?d=0617

https://www.dailywire.com/news/20343/timeline-antifa-violence-january-%E2%80%93-august-2017-frank-camp#

 

Those are from the first page of a google search for antifa crimes...

[Selous Templar]

So instead to demonize this group who's SOUL PURPOSE is to make sure Nazis don't rise to power again,

 

BULLSHIT

 

They're fucking anarcho-Communists! They're WORSE than National Socialism.

 

Communists have killed more people in human history than any National Socialist movement ever. You can not call yourself moral and support the most oppressive and dictatorial ideologies ever.

 

 

These mindless sloganites use manipulative tactics to justify their terrorism. They claim to fight "Nazis", then they label anyone they disagree with (i.e. anyone with common fucking sense who isn't a communist) as a "Nazi", then try to justify their violence with stupid ideas like "it's ok to punch a Nazi" so they can get a "moral" black check to punch anyone they disagree with.

They are the Spanish inquisition, if the Spanish inquisition was a bunch of demasculated low testosterone tofu eating beta male soy boys LARPing as "revolutionaries" and "fighting against the fascists" which are completely non existent.

 

If they were fighting against fascists, how come they don't fly the American flag, why do they burn American flags, and attack people holding the American flag?

 

If they were fighting against fascists, why do they dress like ISIS terrorists, yet these so called "fascist white supremacists" always dress like ordinary individual people, some of whom are black and carry stars and stripes?

 

If they were supposed to be the misunderstood people you claim they are, why has the FBI listed them as a domestic terrorist organization and New Jersey treating them like an unstructured terrorist cell?

 

If they were supposed to be spreading peace and anti-fascism, why are they constantly chanting for dead police, destroying property, or saying wonderful phrases such as "Liberals get the bullet too" and "Your vote is hate speech" and ?

 

If they claim to fight for the people, why do they hit innocents over the head with bike locks, rain spit on Christians praying for the victims of terrorist attacks, and who throw objects like bricks, jars of piss and feces, and use pepper spray on the disabled and war veterans?

 

If they were such supporters of free speech, how come they REGULARLY shut down conservatives who try to give speeches on campus using violence, threats of terrorism, and such anti-intellectual behavior that would make Benito Mussolini blush with envy?

 

If they were such advocates of human rights, why the fuck do they ENDORSE PEDOPHILIA?

 

 

If REAL fascism ever tried to invade the United States, these cowardly twats would be the very first people to run away to their mother's basements where they more than likely actually live.

 

Also TemplarKnight is absolutely correct that the way you discredit ideologies like the Alt-Right and "fascists" is by debating them in ideas, and talking to them.

If you have to resort to violence to prove your point, you have lost the argument.

"If you kill your enemies, they win" - Justin Trudeau

 

Because, let's just presume this for a second shall we? If the "far-right's" ideas were so bad, and so terrible,

WHY can't they fucking say it for themselves? WHY can't they discredit themselves with their own viewpoints??

Are you seriously so naive that you think normal Americans will suddenly become fascists overnight from hearing their ideas? You don't think they'll look at them, and think "yeah nah, they don't sound good"?

By silencing them with violence and communism, they grow covertly, because people think "why do these people want me to stop them from hearing their ideas? I thought we had free speech? I'm gonna go listen to them"

If you don't debate them on their own ideas, you lose, they win, they get more support.

 

But I understand why Antifags can't debate the Alt-right:

(1) Because people will realise that Communism is WORSE than anything the alt-right wants so people wouldn't support them, and

(2) That Antifa are Live Action Role Playing Bourgeoisie that are paid out by an ACTUAL Nazi sympathiser George Soros:

dAqNw-fy808

 

They're anti-american communists who deserve to be thrown out of helicopters like all communists do.

 

 

[dashofweak]

Ok so, a question BTGBullseye. Did you read all your sources before posting them? Because: https://medium.com/@annaliszt/fact-checking-the-antifa-international-list-of-violent-crimes-in-2017-part-1-7b31a87394d5 is about a list that antifa has about alt-right crimes, going through them and checking their validity

 

The source for this: http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/this-list-of-attacks-against-conservatives-is-mind-blowing/ is a very conservative leaning website that in the article doesn't list antifa attacks, just 'crimes' against conservatives in general. Same with: https://www.attacksontrumpsupporters.com/?d=0617

 

And the daily wire article (another heavy right-leaning website) DOES actually list crimes by antifa, but they're all riot-related crimes. And some of these riots aren't even antifa related, for example, they list a riot that occurred on the first of may in Portland as antifa caused, but that's just not the case.

 

And again, I already acknowledged that antifa do riot. But you know what i'm not seeing on these lists? Murders. So let's list out some of the murders committed by the alt-right.

 

Also, I'm going to be using: https://www.splcenter.org/20180205/alt-right-killing-people as my source and helpfully includes a full chart, and you can look each of these up. None of these are false statistics or anything less than undeniably members of the alt-right.

 

 

 

See, that's a LOT of murders, how can you compare antifa to these sheer numbers of killings and shootings? So to recap: antifa riots (though so do football fans: http://www.straitstimes.com/sport/american-football-riots-erupt-in-philadelphia-after-the-eagles-first-super-bowl-win) while the alt-right murders people. Clearly, antifa is the same if not worse than the alt-right (which is sarcasm, it's hard to tell over text)

 

And Selous Templar?

 

Here's something to consider: it may be true that individual membrs of antifa may be anarcho-communists or whatever, but 1. I have yet to actually meet someone as crazy as you and 2. when i take a look at what antifa itself discusses with one another, it's usually about when to use violence and when not to. There's a LOT of discussion about when it is or isn't right to use force or even discussion about tactics to use against the alt-right that don't need physical force. A real question here: have you ever TALKED, not just yelled at, but talked and listened to someone who is a part of antifa?

 

Have you really taken the time to listen to what they have to say? Hear their point of view? Or has all of your knowledge about antifa come from second-hand accounts from people who have already decided to demonise and hate antifa?

 

Where is this accusation that antifa is a communist GROUP (as in as a whole) come from? The alt-right as a group seem to be pretty dedicated to some of the worst parts of white supremacy. Antifa as a group seems to only show up whenever neo-nazis and hard right fascists show up and try to exert their power over people.

 

You say that they label anyone who disagrees with them a nazi but that doesn't at all seem to be the case. Heck, they don't call democrats nazis, and I know that many antifa members consider democrats to be "center-right" and GOP 'Hard-right" as apposed to "left leaning" and "right leaning" like most do in the US.

 

And you decry that antifa uses violence yet here you are saying all of them need to be murdered.

 

It honestly makes me wonder if you're a crypto-fascist yourself, attempting to build up a group that really isn't that bad as the worst thing on the planet to distract from the shootings, murders, and hate crimes the alt-right commits regularly.

 

In short, I still don't understand why antifa gets such a visceral reaction when one examines who they are and what they do. The come off as a left of center group who has a goal of preventing fascist ideas from rising up, while refusing to use the tactics that fascists know how to work around or use to their own benefit: namely debate and "free speech".

 

And hey, if you're such a defender of free speech, why not let the communist speak up? How about for every alt-right speaker who comes onto campus, the KKK or the BMP needs to host a hard-left anarcho-communist to speak on their platform about why the ruling class is stealing everyone's labor for themselves?

 

Here you are, speaking with such broad generalities and charged language about a group that hasn't committed a single murder. It's funny, I hear the same exact language and bs arrangements from alt-right youtube channels and /pol boards.

[rairii]

Oh boy, here we go...

So instead to demonize this group who's SOUL PURPOSE is to make sure Nazis don't rise to power again,

 

BULLSHIT

And I assume you know this because you've spoken to an actual Antifa member or supporter, right?

 

They're fucking anarcho-Communists! They're WORSE than National Socialism.

 

Communists have killed more people in human history than any National Socialist movement ever. You can not call yourself moral and support the most oppressive and dictatorial ideologies ever.

 

This doesn't really tell me anything other than "I ignored a good chunk of the points made in this thread already."

You do realize that the "communist death toll" you and people from your neck of the woods love to cite so much can mostly be attributed to two whole people, right? Stalin and Mao. Why don't I ever see a point against Trotzky, or Lenin, or Castro, or literally any of the 5 other chairmen of China? I'd love to hear about how many deaths THEY'RE responsible for. I'll give you a hint: It's exponentially less than the fascist death toll, especially when you consider despotism which is fascism's forefather.

 

Also, a meme doesn't help prove your point.

 

These mindless sloganites use manipulative tactics to justify their terrorism. They claim to fight "Nazis", then they label anyone they disagree with (i.e. anyone with common fucking sense who isn't a communist) as a "Nazi", then try to justify their violence with stupid ideas like "it's ok to punch a Nazi" so they can get a "moral" black check to punch anyone they disagree with.

They are the Spanish inquisition, if the Spanish inquisition was a bunch of demasculated low testosterone tofu eating beta male soy boys LARPing as "revolutionaries" and "fighting against the fascists" which are completely non existent.

Are you stupid? I mean this sincerely. How old are you? Do you have any semblance of self awareness? I'm not asking to discredit you, I'm asking this because you're raising huge red flags. You can't complain about your opposition being manipulative and using ad hominem and then immediately do the exact same thing. Moreover, you're the only person who's namecalling here.

I'll ask you what Dash has already asked you: Have you actually spoken to a member or supporter of Antifa? That is, had a respectful, meaningful, and insightful interaction instead if behaving the way you are now.

 

Lightning round:

If they were fighting against fascists, how come they don't fly the American flag, why do they burn American flags, and attack people holding the American flag?

Because Fascism is a form of nationalism, and flag burning is anti-nationalistic.

If they were fighting against fascists, why do they dress like ISIS terrorists, yet these so called "fascist white supremacists" always dress like ordinary individual people, some of whom are black and carry stars and stripes?

Because the way they dress doesn't matter. They carry the iconography of Antifa, not ISIS.

And the devil in a suit and tie is still the devil.

If they were supposed to be the misunderstood people you claim they are, why has the FBI listed them as a domestic terrorist organization and New Jersey treating them like an unstructured terrorist cell?

[Citation Needed]

If they were supposed to be spreading peace and anti-fascism, why are they constantly chanting for dead police, destroying property, or saying wonderful phrases such as "Liberals get the bullet too" and "Your vote is hate speech"

Tolerant people don't need to tolerate intolerance.

Anti-establishment people don't need to tolerate the establishment.

If they claim to fight for the people, why do they hit innocents over the head with bike locks, rain spit on Christians praying for the victims of terrorist attacks, and who throw objects like bricks, jars of piss and feces, and use pepper spray on the disabled and war veterans?

[Citation Needed]

If they were such supporters of free speech, how come they REGULARLY shut down conservatives who try to give speeches on campus using violence, threats of terrorism, and such anti-intellectual behavior that would make Benito Mussolini blush with envy?

Again, this is a case of "did you even read the responses in this thread?"

First of all, forgive me for not thinking an anarchist group that actively uses their right to freedom of speech and protest is anti-first-amendment. Supporting free speech doesn't mean you have to tolerate the free speech of nazis.

Second, no, Mussolini isn't blushing with anything because he was a corporatist. Disavowing him doesn't mean he wasn't on your side of the political spectrum.

If they were such advocates of human rights, why the fuck do they ENDORSE PEDOPHILIA?

 

 

If REAL fascism ever tried to invade the United States, these cowardly twats would be the very first people to run away to their mother's basements where they more than likely actually live.

Oh wow, a picture of a couple of people holding a sign, I'm totally convinced now.

It doesn't even specifically endorse pedophilia, it just says to not bash them. I mean, I wouldn't mind a mental health/rehabilitation program for non-violent pedophiles.

 

Also TemplarKnight is absolutely correct that the way you discredit ideologies like the Alt-Right and "fascists" is by debating them in ideas, and talking to them.

If you have to resort to violence to prove your point, you have lost the argument.

"If you kill your enemies, they win" - Justin Trudeau

Any reason in particular why you're quoting an incompetent neoliberal?

Also, maybe you should practice what you preach. First of all, by actually taking the debate seriously, secondly by not standing by the political group that commits more acts of terrorism than any domestic communist group.

 

Because, let's just presume this for a second shall we? If the "far-right's" ideas were so bad, and so terrible,

WHY can't they fucking say it for themselves? WHY can't they discredit themselves with their own viewpoints??

Are you seriously so naive that you think normal Americans will suddenly become fascists overnight from hearing their ideas? You don't think they'll look at them, and think "yeah nah, they don't sound good"?

By silencing them with violence and communism, they grow covertly, because people think "why do these people want me to stop them from hearing their ideas? I thought we had free speech? I'm gonna go listen to them"

If you don't debate them on their own ideas, you lose, they win, they get more support.

YES, They will become fucking fascists overnight because fascism sounds great to your typical right winger. They already display all the signs of a group that's susceptible to falling for fascism. Nationalism? Check. Xenophobia? Check. Disregard for the rights of certain people? Check. I KNOW ordinary people who have turned to fascism, because it's such a tempting ideology to somebody who wants to preserve their way of life. Hell, look at the millions of people who voted for Trump on the premise that he'd build a wall, or ID Muslims. Forgive me for not being trusting of people who are susceptible to falling for fascism.

Also you can't genuinely think they're being silenced with violence when they're a more violent group than its opposition.

 

But I understand why Antifags can't debate the Alt-right:

(1) Because people will realise that Communism is WORSE than anything the alt-right wants so people wouldn't support them, and

(2) That Antifa are Live Action Role Playing Bourgeoisie that are paid out by an ACTUAL Nazi sympathiser George Soros:

dAqNw-fy808

 

They're anti-american communists who deserve to be thrown out of helicopters like all communists do.

 

Well why don't you take a good long look at the 3 'antifags' debating you, templar, and BTG right now. Just because you're not taking us seriously doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

How fucking embarrassing, honestly. This whole post. I don't suspect you'll come back with anything meaningful or respectful but I'd love to be proven wrong. As far as I'm concerned you're no longer in any place to call anybody a hypocrite or really press any sort of criticism of character.

[Kraken]

I would just like to point out that burning the American flag is just a sign of protest. You are legally entitled to your first amendment, and burning a piece of cloth won't get you arrested in a sane country. As well, you cannot be hypocritical about such things if you are wearing clothing with the American flag printed on, because, surprise surprise, that is not what the flag codes say is respectful. "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations." Contrarily, you probably *can* wear it as a sign of respect, it's just that context matters.

 

However, this isn't quite what I'm here for. I would like to point out the futility of prosecuting people with crimes for something honestly pretty negligible. When a person is convicted for possession of illegal substances and has not committed any other crime, it is the worst mistake possible to be made, because when you charge someone with that, you soil their public record, and are likely to make any chances of their employment impossible. We incarcerate people who could be rehabilitated properly, if we could just look at other countries and say, "Hey, this works for them, let's investigate it!" and have an intelligent discussion about it, but we radicalize, getting to the point where we refuse to even acknowledge the source of an argument from someone else. What is the cause for people to make these arguments? Is it a racist bias? Are they getting the information from a credible source?

 

While there are many issues with our system, we would rather form petty arguments than discuss this rationally. I have heard of no other Islamic terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11, while many domestic terrorist activities have been caused by white supremacists, notably not immigrants, and people who are desperate for fame, and will do the worst act possible to achieve this. The republican platform seems to consist of: "Look at how vulnerable our children are to these horrors! We need to prevent exposure to video games!", and in the next day, criticize teenagers for pointing out flaws in their gun policies, all because the politicians want to keep raking in NRA cash. Why do you think that there are so many companies which have pulled out of agreements with the NRA? They are realizing that people DON'T like the NRA. The NRA might have membership of 5 million, but what is that compared to a country with a population of 321 million? That's less than 0.02 percent! Their spokesperson actively speaks out against the survivors of a shooting that was a direct result of the NRA's policies. The NRA endorsed trump and he subsequently decided to "make it easier for mentally ill people to acquire guns." We have had over 50 years to solve the issues of gun control, but it feels like we have taken steps backwards rather than forwards. Over 1,000 people have died in these mass shootings which we should view as terrorist attacks, and a majority of these took place in the last two decades. When we would rather watch children die than do something about the increasing issues of homicide with firearms, it signifies failure. These are terrorist attacks, in our own country, while we proceed to go to countries across an ocean and fight for a "War Against Terror," arguably making these countries worse, rather than helping them. We come through and destroy infrastructure and provide little to no substitute afterwards, making it easier for these forces for which we are fighting, to maintain control. Fighting a fire but not getting to the root of it, is obviously the least effective way of handling it.

[Selous Templar]

I would just like to point out that burning the American flag is just a sign of protest. You are legally entitled to your first amendment, and burning a piece of cloth won't get you arrested in a sane country. As well, you cannot be hypocritical about such things if you are wearing clothing with the American flag printed on, because, surprise surprise, that is not what the flag codes say is respectful. "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations." Contrarily, you probably *can* wear it as a sign of respect, it's just that context matters.

 

Correct, still most americans are patriotic, so even if it's legal, it's still very disrespectful to many americans and war veterans if someone burns the flag.

 

However, this isn't quite what I'm here for. I would like to point out the futility of prosecuting people with crimes for something honestly pretty negligible. When a person is convicted for possession of illegal substances and has not committed any other crime, it is the worst mistake possible to be made, because when you charge someone with that, you soil their public record, and are likely to make any chances of their employment impossible. We incarcerate people who could be rehabilitated properly, if we could just look at other countries and say, "Hey, this works for them, let's investigate it!" and have an intelligent discussion about it, but we radicalize, getting to the point where we refuse to even acknowledge the source of an argument from someone else. What is the cause for people to make these arguments? Is it a racist bias? Are they getting the information from a credible source?

 

Nah (what the hell even is a "racist bias"? That sounds like something that an SJW would think of, no offense)

I think it's just because people sometimes don't want to admit they were wrong about something.

 

While there are many issues with our system, we would rather form petty arguments than discuss this rationally. I have heard of no other Islamic terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11,

 

Ok, so you've not heard of the 2002 Los Angeles Airport shooting?

The 2009 Little Rock recruiting office shooting? The Ford Hood shooting?

The 2013 Boston Marathon bombing?

The 2014 Queen's Hatchet attack?

The 2015 Curtis Culwell Center shooting? The Chattanooga shootings? The San Bernardino shooting?

The 2016 Orlando Night Club shooting? The New York/New Jersey Bombings? The Ohio State University attack?

And even recently the 2017 Lower Manhattan Truck attack?

And that's just America. I haven't even counted the worldwide list.

Do you have a really poor memory, or did you legit not know about these?

 

while many domestic terrorist activities have been caused by white supremacists, notably not immigrants, and people who are desperate for fame, and will do the worst act possible to achieve this.

 

[Citation Needed]

You're right about fame though. Most mass shooters are narcissists who want to do better than the last one they see on the news, so they can be some kind of anti-hero post-humorously.

 

The republican platform seems to consist of: "Look at how vulnerable our children are to these horrors! We need to prevent exposure to video games!"

 

Yeah, but we don't live in the 1990's anymore. They lost the argument on that, they don't care about it anymore. If anything it's Democrats like Weyland Yee who care about "violent videogames" and the left with their reaction to Gamergate. I was not happy with Trump doing it though, that was stupid of him, but the dude's an old man who cares about making america more rich. He's the business president, not the social issues one, whether we like it or not. He's too misinformed on this topic and probably doesn't know what he's saying.

 

and in the next day, criticize teenagers for pointing out flaws in their gun policies

 

You mean "not allowing a bunch of traumatized teenagers from dictating to the entire American public what their rights must be".

Never mind that (IMO) that they are exploiting the easily preventable (if the police did their fucking jobs) massacre and using the bodies of their dead friends as a stepping stone to fame and stardum, as well as literally prostituting themselves out to MSM companies like CNN. Does't sound like the people who I would want to tell me what I can't do. They can have their say, but no one has to do anything for them.

 

all because the politicians want to keep raking in NRA cash.

 

Yes, on both sides. Democraps get funding from the Illegal weapons trade, and the Rhino Republicunts get NRA funding (which isn't even that much really)

 

Why do you think that there are so many companies which have pulled out of agreements with the NRA?

 

Because they're cowards who capitulate to anti-gun extremists as to satisfy a small minority of people.

 

They are realizing that people DON'T like the NRA.

 

If by "People" you mean a "very small minority of extremists" then you would be correct.

 

The NRA might have membership of 5 million, but what is that compared to a country with a population of 321 million? That's less than 0.02 percent!

 

Yeah, you do realise that not every pro-gun American is an NRA member. A hell of a lot of Americans love their firearms

 

Their spokesperson actively speaks out against the survivors

 

Yeah, because she's a smart strong independent woman who won't be lectured to by traumatized survivors who honestly don't know what they're talking about.

BTW isn't it funny how the media will latch onto the survivors who want gun control, but won't give a platform to students who are pro-gun, like Columbine shooting survivor Patrick Neville, or in CNN's case, will call said survivors as liars:

http://deadline.com/2018/02/cnn-denies-writing-school-shooting-survivor-question-town-hall-1202299515/

 

of a shooting that was a direct result of the NRA's policies.

 

Where the hell did you pull that one from? No mate, it was a direct result of the FBI and the Police that refused to respond to the 39 phone calls for help and do anything about the shooter, deciding to stand back and do absolutely fucking nothing to stop it.

Listen, if you are anti-gun, they are supposed to be the people who will defend you right?

But they did nothing! Add the fact that the Sheriff Scott Israel won't take responsibility, won't resign, got payed $51 million, and bought a Lamborghini right after the shooting is proof to me that you can't trust (most of) your police, and it's clear to see why America needs it's second amendment (and federalist papers).

 

The NRA endorsed trump

 

Because that's a no-brainer (maybe literally)

 

and he subsequently decided to "make it easier for mentally ill people to acquire guns"

 

Wrong. Extremely mentally ill people already can't get guns, the law Trump overturned was a regulation that was a breech of privacy of the individual requiring unnecessary background checks, on top of the ones already needed for firearm purchase. For example, a Trans-sexual is classified as mentally ill. Under the law, if that person wanted to buy a firearm, they would need to basically DOX themselves untop of a background check for the weapon. Now that law is gone.

 

Over 1,000 people have died in these mass shootings

 

Which only statistically makes up 13% of gun related deaths. Most gun deaths are from suicides, but most firearm homicide is Gang Warfare, surprisingly in the states which have the highest level of gun control laws (makes you think), such as Chicago and Detroit, using illegally acquired firearms. If you want to stop the majority of gun death, you should look into gang warfare. BTW it's not just gangs who get killed. Lots of innocent bystanders get killed too.

 

These are terrorist attacks, in our own country, while we proceed to go to countries across an ocean and fight for a "War Against Terror," arguably making these countries worse, rather than helping them. We come through and destroy infrastructure and provide little to no substitute afterwards, making it easier for these forces for which we are fighting, to maintain control. Fighting a fire but not getting to the root of it, is obviously the least effective way of handling it.

 

Absolutely Correct. America has been doing it for their military-industrial complex, so it's a good thing that people are starting to take none of that bullshit. America should pull out of the middle east, send the refugees back, and leave them alone. The people of the middle east will dictate what happens to their country, not the USA.

[dashofweak]

 

[Citation Needed]

 

 

Here's one for you: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/26/alt-america-terrorism-rightwing-hate-crimes

 

 

Yeah, but we don't live in the 1990's anymore

 

 

Here's one from less than a week ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/us/politics/trump-video-games-shootings.html

 

 

using the bodies of their dead friends as a stepping stone to fame and stardum

 

as well as literally prostituting themselves out to MSM companies like CNN

 

Personally i think it was the fact that they saw their friends die in front of them that made them want to see change. And an important stepping stone towards changes is raising awareness. Doesn't it make more sense that they want to see change rather than these kids are so heartless that they'd use their friend's deaths for personal gain? Or is that just how you see most people that you surround yourself behave?

 

Also, these kids didn't get paid to have sex with people from CNN or MSM. No, underage prostitution is something that the GOP is more leaning towards: https://nypost.com/2017/12/05/video-shows-oklahoma-senator-caught-with-underage-boy-in-hotel/

 

 

 

If by "People" you mean a "very small minority of extremists" then you would be correct.

 

 

66% of Americans want to BAN assault weapons, 50% of GUN OWNERS want it to be tougher to get a gun in general: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/poll-support-gun-control-hits-record-high-n849686

 

 

 

Yeah, because she's a smart strong independent woman who won't be lectured to by traumatized survivors who honestly don't know what they're talking about.

 

 

Yeah, a woman who is paid by a gun lobbying group to speak about how great guns are and parrot words they give her knows a hell of a lot more about violence caused by guns than KIDS who saw their classmates gunned down.

 

 

Which only statistically makes up 13% of gun related deaths. Most gun deaths are from suicides, but most firearm homicide is Gang Warfare

 

 

Ok A. it's still friggen alarming that 1000 deaths by mass shootings only account for 13% of deaths and B. no, most homicide by firearms is cause by domestic disputes. You're more likely to be shot by you dad, husband, wife, sister, uncle, or whatever than a stranger. AND most gun DEATHS are by suicide. You're far more likely to kill yourself if you have a gun than if you don't. This is why when you buy a gun, your insurance rates go up, because adjusters KNOW that if you own a gun, you're far more likely to harm yourself or your immediate family.

 

And lastly

 

 

That sounds like something that an SJW would think of

 

 

Boy, that kinda says it all doesn't it. I'm glad you said that to be honest, now i don't have to take anything you say seriously ever again. I have NEVER met someone who uses the term SJW and means it to be a person worth talking to.