General American Politics Thread

[ThePest179]

Heh, called it. Sandernistas and Trumpers cross over in their love their anti-free trade, anti-establishment, anti-immigration, anti-"elite" rhetoric (which in practice translates to "educated professionals are worthless and don't know what they're talking about", to make the former stances consistent). They also tend to be overwhelmingly middle class whites who either work/worked in a low skilled labor job, or who go to college/recently got out of college. A lot of crossover should be expected.

 

I wonder how many Sanders supporters will cross over to Trump should the former fail to get the nomination.

[Seattleite]

I wonder how many Sanders supporters will cross over to Trump should the former fail to get the nomination.

 

10%? 20%? Really, just the low-information voters who only know that Bernie and Trump both are stated to be anti-establishment and hate the establishment. It's unfortunate that it's such a high number, but most voters are low-information and it's actually kinda surprising it seems to be as little for Bernie as it is.

 

The other 80-90% fucking know better. They know Trump is a lunatic fascist and isn't *really* anti-establishment, he actually went and begged the donors for money and only started calling people out for taking money when he got rejected. Meanwhile, they know that Bernie is basically a German centrist or a French right-winger in terms of all of his policies, he's basically Elizabeth Warren with major hair loss and a Y-chromosome, and is the only option that isn't either fascism (Trump), fascism with a side of theocracy (Cruz), or absolutely no positive change and more control to the corporations (Hillary and Kasich). They will either vote for Hillary or not vote at all if Bernie doesn't win.

[Binky The Rabbit]

They will either vote for Hillary or not vote at all if Bernie doesn't win.

Would there be any sense in voting for an independent/third party, if that were the case? (if it's at all possible - candidates, name on ballot paper etc)

 

They're two very different ball games, but for example, Britain last year went from what was essentially a two-horse race (Labour-Conservative) to 7 parties getting airtime (Labour-Conservative-LibDem-Green-UKIP-SNP-PlaidCymru).

[Seattleite]

No third parties. Spoiler effect, just handing the win to Trump.

[ThePest179]

No third parties. Spoiler effect, just handing the win to Trump.

 

Exactly. In America voting third party usually* has the same effect as not voting at all.

 

*There have been exceptions, of course, but practically all of them never resulted in a third party win, just an opposition win.

[RandomGuy]

Really, just the low-information voters who only know that Bernie and Trump both are stated to be anti-establishment and hate the establishment.

They probably notice Sanders and Trump crossing over on many issues, not just general anti-establishment rhetoric. Mostly trade and immigration, but also probably both candidates being in favor of spending less money on the defense of other countries.

 

It's unfortunate that it's such a high number, but most voters are low-information and it's actually kinda surprising it seems to be as little for Bernie as it is.

As we all know, well educated voters are the ones that vote for the Sandinista/Castro/USSR fanboy who never had a chance in the election and who can't do basic fact checking when writing his plans. Also, people with postgraduate educations (which lean towards Clinton according to all the exit polls) are "low information", while 18-24 year old middle class white college students (who make up a big chunk of Bernie's support) are the most qualified voters.

 

The other 80-90% fucking know better. They know Trump is a lunatic fascist and isn't *really* anti-establishment, he actually went and begged the donors for money and only started calling people out for taking money when he got rejected. Meanwhile, they know that Bernie is basically a German centrist or a French right-winger in terms of all of his policies, he's basically Elizabeth Warren with major hair loss and a Y-chromosome, and is the only option that isn't either fascism (Trump), fascism with a side of theocracy (Cruz), or absolutely no positive change and more control to the corporations (Hillary and Kasich). They will either vote for Hillary or not vote at all if Bernie doesn't win.

Oh boy, your post has it all! "Low information voters" (let me guess, you mean those pesky minorities?), "Hillary will do nothing positive and make us all slaves of the corporations", "informed people vote for Bernie", the works! All this coming from the guy who praised the plan that called for saving more on prescription drugs than the country spends in total, "forgot" about the insane piracy rates of indie games, thought Sanders winning the bluest states actually mattered while Hillary winning all the big swing states didn't, trusted general election polls while at the same time trying to dismiss much more reliable primary polls, and advocated for protectionism against the advice of pretty much every economist! With quality supporters like you, I honestly can't figure out why Bernie is getting smoked so badly.

 

You're like every negative stereotype of a Bernie supporter (extremely and unjustifiably arrogant, entitled, blind to the political process, Internet Atheist who talks down to people with different religious beliefs, pointlessly mean-spirited and aggressive, etc.) rolled into one. The only part you're missing is some vaguely racist and condescending spiel about black and Latino voters being "uninformed and voting against their own interests".

[Blightmare]

Seriously, guys. Fangs. Away. This is starting to happen almost everytime a new thread comes out in this subforum and it's tiresome and stressful.

 

One debate where people aren't at each other's throats every page. That's all I ask.

[Seattleite]

Eh, whatever. It's not going to escalate. I don't read Randomtroll's posts, ever, under any circumstances. Why start now?

[Binky The Rabbit]

It's a long read, but here's a piece about the excitement over Obama, and how it morphed into the disappointment held today by many. I'd extract a bunch of quotes, but it'd make this post excessively long.

 

Another piece about Jon Stewart highlights the general feeling:

When George Bush left office in 2008, some worried that Stewart would run out of material. This proved as shortsighted as the hope that Obama would be America’s grand salvation. Stewart, who describes himself as “a leftist”, has always hammered the Democrats with the vigour of a disappointed supporter, and subjected Obama to one of his most damaging interviews during his first term: the supreme chancellor admitted that his 2008 slogan probably should have been “Yes We Can, But...” At the time, Stewart laughed, but today he admits with a shrug, “It was heartbreaking. It’s generally heartbreaking – that’s what the gig is.”

[Heliocentrical]

I knows it's going to wind up being Trump v. Clinton, I just know it. I wish Sanders stood a chance but I don't think he does. It would be nice if the US had some capacity to actually improve itself instead of wallowing around in it's own shit doing nothing. When did I have to start caring about reality TV because that's what politics is. Highly entertaining and downright depressing. You know what fuck this shit I reject this reality and substitute my own. I'd rather be in denial at this point then acknowledge the world around me because I don't have any ability to change it. Well technically I do but it's so minuscule that I might as well not bother.

[RandomGuy]

Seriously, guys. Fangs. Away. This is starting to happen almost everytime a new thread comes out in this subforum and it's tiresome and stressful.

 

One debate where people aren't at each other's throats every page. That's all I ask.

This has more than a little to do with someone who insults huge swaths of the population (e.g. anyone who isn't an Atheist, anyone who doesn't share his opinion on certain companies, anyone who works in law enforcement, anyone who votes for Hillary over Bernie- which in practice means most black/Latino Americans, etc.) in vulgar and hyperbolic ways in literally every thread he posts in. Often before shifting to a specific person. It's frankly very old at this point.

 

It's not going to escalate. I don't read Randomtroll's posts, ever, under any circumstances.

Of course you don't, they're full of sources and data. Such things are sacrilege to a living stereotype like you. On an unrelated note, tell me again about how there was no Armenian genocide.

 

You can just stay in your echo chamber where educated people don't flock to Hillary, economists don't disagree with almost every single one of your golden boy's policies, and where the world actually conforms to that nonsensical wall of text you posted a while back, where you ranted about how Bernie is going to win. Meanwhile people in this reality will be laughing as his more fanatical supporters go deeper and deeper into the state of denial.

[RandomGuy]

I knows it's going to wind up being Trump v. Clinton, I just know it. I wish Sanders stood a chance but I don't think he does. It would be nice if the US had some capacity to actually improve itself instead of wallowing around in it's own shit doing nothing.

A vote for Bernie is a vote for regression into 19th century nativism (and anti-intellectualism), not improvement. Every "good" policy he had was going to be poorly implemented, if they passed, and they never would have passed (while Clinton mostly has better thought out and easier to pass versions of the same policies). Every batshit insane idea he had (e.g. withdrawing from the WTO, terminating all free trade agreements, reducing worker visa quotas, reducing immigration, cutting support to the SDF/Kurds in Syria, not bombing ISIS in Syria, demanding Saudi fucking Arabia and the other Gulf States lead the fight against ISIS in Iraq, etc.) would have been trivial for him to enact.

[Seattleite]

I knows it's going to wind up being Trump v. Clinton, I just know it. I wish Sanders stood a chance but I don't think he does.

 

Why not? Clinton's lead is mostly super-delegates and Sanders is leading in all the states coming up. If the polling is accurate, he should surpass her in pledged delegates, and then it's all about what the super delegates do.

[Heliocentrical]

I knows it's going to wind up being Trump v. Clinton, I just know it. I wish Sanders stood a chance but I don't think he does.

 

Why not? Clinton's lead is mostly super-delegates and Sanders is leading in all the states coming up. If the polling is accurate, he should surpass her in pledged delegates, and then it's all about what the super delegates do.

I don't know, maybe that's just my pessimism speaking for itself. I was rather tired when I wrote that. I really can't say I'm well-informed when it comes to politics.

[Seattleite]

I'm still putting his odds of winning pretty low, by the way. 20%, maybe 25%. The super-delegates are getting pretty ballsy and the media is already whitewashing their presence by pretending they're real delegates.

[Blightmare]

This has more than a little to do with someone who insults huge swaths of the population (e.g. anyone who isn't an Atheist, anyone who doesn't share his opinion on certain companies, anyone who works in law enforcement, anyone who votes for Hillary over Bernie- which in practice means most black/Latino Americans, etc.) in vulgar and hyperbolic ways in literally every thread he posts in. Often before shifting to a specific person. It's frankly very old at this point.

Rules aren't enforced on a basis of who who started it or who did it worse. Any violations on another users part will be dealt with accordingly, and I strongly recommend ignoring them to avoid any risk. Especially since this forum has an ignore button.

 

And I can promise you the only difference between ignoring and confronting is that confronting leaves everyone significantly more upset than before.

[RandomGuy]

I knows it's going to wind up being Trump v. Clinton, I just know it. I wish Sanders stood a chance but I don't think he does.

 

Why not? Clinton's lead is mostly super-delegates and Sanders is leading in all the states coming up.

How are you so wrong about everything?

 

1. Clinton's lead of 317 pledged delegates is still unassailably big.

 

2. New York is one of only a few states to be polled for the Democratic primaries this month that hasn't already been voted on (it also has the most remaining delegates besides California), and these polls are extremely lopsided in favor of Clinton. The state with more delegates than the others combined next Tuesday, Arizona, is heavily pro-Clinton by all the polls. Other March state polls that heavily favor Clinton include Maryland and Pennsylvania. Three guesses why.

[Seattleite]

Especially since this forum has an ignore button.

 

Which is a useful tool. One to be used sparingly, to be sure, but some people are completely unreasonable and need to be ignored. Him, for instance. And of course, if somebody is completely unreasonable, they're better off using this tool more often as well. Him, for instance.

 

Seriously, there's a reason I haven't read one of his posts in years. I mean, by the looks of it he seems to be attacking me, and judging by this post, at least the snippet you quoted, he's blaming me for it and trying to get you to punish me for not engaging him. Even though I've been ignoring him since October 2014. It's pretty ridiculous.

[Seattleite]

So, uh... NO talk of the establishment's massive voter suppression in Massachusetts and Arizona, the former done personally by Bill friggin' Clinton? None? Okay then.

[Heliocentrical]

Do Trump supporters provide a solid argument for being against democracy? I'm speaking in general but I'm using Trump supporters as an example. It seems like individuals who actually care about important issues are effectively being overruled by idiots. Maybe we should have some sort of an I.Q test requirement for voting rights. If you don't have the minimum x intelligence then you can't vote. Sounds like a pretty solid plan to me. Idiots should basically be second class citizens.