30fps vs. 60fps videos

[Ross Scott]

I've just recently managed to move and have internet, but I'm still getting my room set up for recording, so it may be another day or two before work resumes on Freeman's Mind, but I plan to get on it ASAP. In the meantime, I've received a bunch of messages asking whether I'll be moving Freeman's Mind and Ross's Game Dungeon to 60fps now that Youtube supports it. The short answer is no for Freeman's Mind and I don't know yet for Game Dungeon. While doubling my framerate adds more time to making the videos and things more of a hassle all-round, I'm not trying to fight progress if the end results are truly better. I did some tests with 60fps and motion blur however and you can see the results yourself:

 

1. 180fps downsampled to 30fps (this is how Freeman's Mind appears normally)

1280x720 MKV 30fps (7MB)

 

2. 360fps downsampled to 60fps (same technique as before, but with a higher framerate)

1280x720 MKV 60fps (8MB)

 

3. 180fps downsampled to 60fps (experimental mode using the same data as the original, but to a higher framerate)

1280x720 MKV 60fps (8MB)

 

I recommend watching all these videos in FULL SCREEN mode. While people will have different opinions on this, my take on 60fps is that it looks very cool in some situations, and is vomit-inducing in others. I'm someone who gets carsick easily, and the part where Freeman is spinning in this short test triggered a bit of nausea for me watching it at 60fps. It doesn't help that Valve's demo recording isn't perfect and sometimes adds some twitchiness to the motion that wasn't in the original gameplay. 60fps only amplifies that effect. It's for these reasons that I don't think moving Freeman's Mind to 60fps would be a good idea, since Freeman isn't known for having calm and controlled camera angles. It would make some sections look cooler, but would also make other sections look worse.

 

As for Game Dungeon, I haven't decided yet and will have to do more experiments later. I think racing games might show the most benefit from running at 60fps, but anything involving twitchy camera motion I think could be a bad idea. Also, it could be the motion blur amplifies the nausea effect and games without it may look fine at 60fps. I think 60fps has potential, but for passive viewing, more care is needed with the camerawork in order for it to look good. For the record, this doesn't mean I think GAMES don't benefit from having 60fps or more, don't believe any company that tells you that 30fps is better for gaming than 60fps unless it's a special-case situation (like cutscenes). I have never played a GAME that felt worse at 60fps than at 30fps; but just like how I can get carsick riding in a car, I never get sick if I'm the one driving. It's the same thing for games, you're the one in control. With video watching, it's not always a pleasing effect, and depends a lot on how the camerawork is being handled. Sorry if this disappoints anyone, but I have to go with what I think creates the best impact.

 

- - -

 

ADHD version: Ross is not moving Freeman's Mind to 60fps because it will make too many people barf. He did experiments and used science to determine this.

 

COMMENTS

[Presence]

I heard with Half Life motion sickness has to do with a nonstandard FOV. Half life 2 caused me and many others horrible nausea on the airboat level.

 

I'm the mirror of you for what causes it though. Watching someone else isn't bad. When playing, it's far worse. I think it happens because I'll be inputting commands, expecting certain output, bang into something, and then the screen jerks all over the place from formerly smooth movement. Dino run was particularly bad for me for some reason.

 

You'd think I'd hate super hexagon, but no, love that game.

[danielsangeo]

I am one of those people that do not like 60fps for passive video watching. It just feels weird, like the video is on fast-forward but it isn't. It's not because it's "new" and I'm "just not used to it yet"; I canNOT "get used to it". It just feels wrong no matter how long I watch it.

 

When I'm playing video games, I'm fine with it and it looks great. When I'm passively watching a video, 30FPS is gold.

 

So I, for one, am thankful Freeman's Mind, et al, will remain at 30fps. I wonder about Civil Protection, though (or other shorts, such as "Stranger in Need").

[Crawfish]

I completely understand where you're coming from.

Personally, I love 60fps YouTube videos. It just feels so smooth, and in watching a few gaming videos I almost thought I was playing at a couple points, which gave me something to chuckle at.

I think the videos that will benefit most from 60fps are videos of old 8 bit and 16 bit games, like NES and SNES.

I've noticed that a lot of games that use flashing to indicate invulnerability after taking hits are hit hard by YouTube's compression, because the flashing sometimes makes the sprite either stay opaque or completely disappear for the duration of the flashing, and that's always pissed me off a bit.

 

But Ross, I have a question. If, in the future, YouTube adds options for 720p and up to be either 30 or 60 fps, instead of locking it at the framerate it was uploaded at, would you once again consider 60fps? That way, anyone who gets nauseous from 60fps, or certain things about it, could just (hopefully) toggle an option to lock all videos at 30fps, like I have my general resolution locked at 720p whenever it's available.

[BTGBullseye]

I personally like the look of the 180/60, but I would like to see another 2-3 blur frames if possible... 360/60 shouldn't even need motion blur.

[Ap2000]

Usually 60fps is better for, well, everything really.

 

However, you tend to make a lot of fast and hectic motions, so I think the video being downsampled to 30fps is much easier on the eyes.

 

You should also consider that only google's botnet browser supports 60fps on YT right now.

[Ross Scott]

But Ross, I have a question. If, in the future, YouTube adds options for 720p and up to be either 30 or 60 fps, instead of locking it at the framerate it was uploaded at, would you once again consider 60fps? That way, anyone who gets nauseous from 60fps, or certain things about it, could just (hopefully) toggle an option to lock all videos at 30fps, like I have my general resolution locked at 720p whenever it's available.

I haven't made a decision on Game Dungeon yet, I'll just have to see.

 

I personally like the look of the 180/60, but I would like to see another 2-3 blur frames if possible... 360/60 shouldn't even need motion blur.

Another 2-3 blur frames IS 300-360fps and that's there too. As for no blur required at 60, you kind of have to question what we're aiming for then. It would be smooth motion, but real life has motion blur, so it would become less real and more smooth, if that makes sense.

 

Usually 60fps is better for, well, everything really.

 

However, you tend to make a lot of fast and hectic motions, so I think the video being downsampled to 30fps is much easier on the eyes.

 

You should also consider that only google's botnet browser supports 60fps on YT right now.

In gaming, I would agree. In movies, it really depends. Moving to high framerates makes things seem more real, but the "cinematic effect" people talk about really isn't bullshit. For instance, for The Hobbit, at 24fps, I thought "that's Gandalf telling a story, this is interesting" at 48fps "that's Ian McKellen wearing a robe putting on a performance for the camera." You lose that "larger than life" aspect to some cinema if the framerate is very high. It stops feeling like a movie and starts feeling more like watching actors perform live. Even for my own movie, I doubt I'll make it at higher than 30fps, but who knows. That's not an issue for Game Dungeon however, for there my main concern will just be making sure things don't feel nauseating. I'll look into it later, I plan for my next game to cover to be a 3D game actually where 60fps should be an option.

 

As for Chrome, I hear you, I actually can't run Chrome with my custom UI because it's REQUIRED to hook into explorer.exe. If you don't have that running as your shell, Chrome won't work. Kind of insane since Google tries to be platform-independent and that's strictly a Windows UI thing, all I can figure is they're using it to track how you use your own computer.

[Tord]

While the bumped resolution was really nice; changing the frame rate now in the homestretch of the series would be really jarring.

I do however think 60 fps looks a lot better and would love to see all your future projects and the current side-projects in 60 fps.

Think the reason people feel weird about it is just because we are so used to 24/30 fps right now, but given a little time we will all quickly adapt and appreciate it.

 

On a side note; Jesus fuckmongering Christ, it's hard to register an account on this forum! Apparently my 14 character password isn't enough without uppercase, the person behind Freeman's mind isn't 'Scott', and the game it takes place in isn't 'Half-Life' but rather it's misspelled counterpart 'Half Life'.

[St. Goliath]

While the 60 FPS version does look smother, I didn't exactly feel sick, but the rapid rotating gave me a weired tingly sensation in my head, somewhere above my eyes.

 

This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a friend who said he played Half-Life 1 but never got around to even starting Half-Life 2,

since every time he tried, he got a bad headache and nausea after a few minutes. When he finally reached the airbot sequence, it got so bad

that he simply gave up on trying to play the game.

[Xeotroid]

The last example looked super awesome. I didn't even notice how I missed 60 FPS in practically anything, maybe because I don't see it very often (and I practically don't notice it in-game, I usually don't get that framerate, not even in HL).

I think it would be kinda cool if you would be able to upload 2 videos, one at 30 FPS and the second one at 60, but I understand that it's a lot of data to upload and double the raw video data just for 60 FPS alone.

A plausible solution for those who really want 60 FPS may be using SVP (Smooth Video Project), because it doubles the FPS and uses some really cool techiques to make the video look like it's been made at higher framerate. I didn't try it with shooter gameplay videos, though.

[kingkolton9]

In gaming, I would agree. In movies, it really depends. Moving to high framerates makes things seem more real, but the "cinematic effect" people talk about really isn't bullshit. For instance, for The Hobbit, at 24fps, I thought "that's Gandalf telling a story, this is interesting" at 48fps "that's Ian McKellen wearing a robe putting on a performance for the camera." You lose that "larger than life" aspect to some cinema if the framerate is very high. It stops feeling like a movie and starts feeling more like watching actors perform live. Even for my own movie, I doubt I'll make it at higher than 30fps, but who knows. That's not an issue for Game Dungeon however, for there my main concern will just be making sure things don't feel nauseating. I'll look into it later, I plan for my next game to cover to be a 3D game actually where 60fps should be an option.

 

Speaking of the cinematic effect, I tend to get nauseous when watching movies at 60+ FPS and the camera is too smooth. It gives me this weird feeling of "I'm not going to throw up, but I feel dizzyish." The third test no-doubt has that effect.

 

I'd also like to point this out from the Combine Overwiki. The source is from Raising the Bar:

 

The Airboat was originally a Jet Ski but did not playtest well. When the Airboat (then known as the "Mudskipper") replaced it and was first tested, it caused motion sickness. If the player's view was tightly connected to the vehicle, every slight bump was magnified, making some early playtesters nauseous (Adrian Finol, programmer, even threw up after an extended playtest). A careful redesign of the handlebar, pontoon and roll-cage were subsequently made, ending with the current version.

That's what I call a dedicated programmer.

[techdude]

I too get somewhat nauseous when watching high motion items at 60fps. Also, I feel like it is more immersive mentally than 30FPS (not saying that is a bad thing, it just adds to the nausea). I don't mind if you keep it at 30fps. I think it looks great.

 

Ironically, when I first saw the youtube announcement, the first thing that came to mind was, "I'll bet some people are now going to start pestering Ross to get everything in 60fps". I guess I was right. Full disclosure, as a child of the 90s, the content means more to me than the presentation quality. When I think back on some of the best movies of the decade, I don't think about how they were in fuzzy, standard VHS quality - the stories more than made up for it. Keep up the good work.

[VeryShyPerson]

Thank you for not moving to 60fps. On account of my fiddly brain, videos with that high of a framerate are difficult for me to watch.

[Tord]

The last example looked super awesome. [...]

I think it would be kinda cool if you would be able to upload 2 videos, one at 30 FPS and the second one at 60, but I understand that it's a lot of data to upload and double the raw video data just for 60 FPS alone.

[...]

The alternative 60 fps one was made with the exact same raw data as the 30 fps one.

 

Even if you were to talk about the sizes of the rendered videos, there's hardly any difference at 6,84 MB and 7,86 MB respectively because of the way video is compressed.

Sure there is probably a fixed size header on the files which makes the scaling somewhat misleading when looking at files this small;

but since there should be no need for more key-frames when the fps is doubled, the videos won't be that much larger.

 

If it's worth the hassle however is an entirely different discussion.

[Alyxx Thorne]

I'm fine with 30 fps personally. As far as I know, Firefox cannot take advantage of the new 60 fps YouTube yet and I use Firefox.

[Mike_90]

I prefer the alternate version of 60fps. I just love higher fps. Lower fps gets me headaches... especially in 3D.

[percep]

I agree with keeping it at 30fps. At first glance I felt like barfing (literally I didn’t even know I get this motion sick) but after I was almost able to adjust to it, but something still felt wrong. Everything feels wonderful the way it is right now.

 

Edit-I wouldn’t mind 60fps if Ross ends up doing it in the end, I can adjust. I may be getting sick because I’m just so use to the show being in 30, however I think 60fps may be best saved for something completely new for the time being.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Guest (see edit history)

[BTGBullseye]

Lower fps gets me headaches... especially in 3D.

Agreed... I have to deal with it because my computer usually can't do over 30 FPS on modern games, but it still makes it a pain to move from 30FPS to real life. (and 60FPS is actually SLOWER than real life, RL is variable between 72 and 85FPS)

[Mr Nutt]

While 60fps didn't make me feel ill at all like quite a few others here, in fact I didn't mind it at all. That being said though, with the rest of the series in 30fps and it being so close to the end, it would seem a bit off suddenly switching. I don't know, maybe you could try 60fps if you continue into Half-Life 2?

Edited November 9, 2014 by Guest (see edit history)

[Nomaken]

Sweet jesus, 60 FPS looks BEAUTIFUL. I had no idea what i was missing. In other news, i don't care. You do what you want to, ross. ^_^