Abortion Controversy

[Scorpia]

shit, i just said i didn't want to do that dance. alright m. night, i am not seeing your goals here, are you wanting me to agree with you? or are you simply offended by my moral obligations to want a human being to live? yes my argument still stands on "it may not be a human being yet but it will be eventually"...either way i'm maintaining my animosity towards abortion. anyway, my goal is to explain why i believe abortion is wrong, understandable in some cases, but still wrong.

 

to your last paragraph: kinda pointless to tell me this, i don't advocate sacrificing an individuals life.

 

i'm just saying if you're irresponsible enough to have consensual sex, then have an unwanted pregnancy; then i find it wrong to just abort it.

 

you're still working on the premise that a child doesn't have rights until it is born, everyone deserves a chance at life. you making it easier to swallow by rationalizing that the fetus is a parasite, a clump of cells, is based on your personal way of seeing it, i see it as a future human being, one that i'm sure would be appalled if it were to hear that you were thinking of killing it.

 

furthermore you're giving off the impression that a fetus is an object you can own, and that you can do with it what you please, and that's how you rationalize the mother's choice to decide if it lives or dies. my problem with some pro-choicers is that most of them take the child's possible opinion out of the equation, possibly never considering "does it wanna live?" "will it be important one day?" "i certainly didn't want to be aborted..." i am not evil in believing this.

 

unrelated:...Hello Headache, Tylenol is going to make you its bitch!

Edited August 21, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[Lux Arbuckle]

Do you really think the solution to the world's problems is more children to work it all out? More people unable to work because an infant needs to be cared for? More mouths to feed? More people taking up more space which we're invading, exploiting, and destroying more and more of?

 

That seems counterproductive to me. Seems to me it'd be easier to get those great people out of the population if you had less people to educate and feed and give shelter to as well as fewer adults and teenagers being needlessly being removed from the workforce or academia.

[Scorpia]

alright, only i'm not debating a solve for the world's problems, i'm simply explaining to Mr. Archer here the reasoning as to why i think abortion is wrong...while adding small barely noticeable jokes here and there.

 

oddly though(odd for me anyway) i find your argument difficult to fight against, mostly because it's tough to disagree with, less children could= more food, more money, less taken up space etc.

however humans are naturally counterproductive, self destructive, and to some monkeys: we even look funny, so really, people stopping having children is not going to happen...

[Lux Arbuckle]

so really, people stopping having children is not going to happen...

 

There have been periods of human history when contraceptives were prevalent and abortion was common and safe, it's only when the people in power feel bad about sex that things get like this.

 

Pro-choice doesn't mean kill all babies, it means let the people who don't want or can't handle the responsibility of a additional life choose to not do so. Oh, and to save some women from the danger of pregnancy.

[Scorpia]

yea that part of pro-choice is fair.

[Lux Arbuckle]

yea that part of pro-choice is fair.

 

Personally, it's the only part that matters. Keeping living people in good situations and alive.

[Scorpia]

too bad that's far too much to much to ask for these days...although we're getting off topic a little bit...

[Michael Archer]

yes my argument still stands on "it may not be a human being yet but it will be eventually"

 

Which is metaphysically flawed, as I've explained many times.

 

i'm just saying if you're irresponsible enough to have consensual sex, then have an unwanted pregnancy; then i find it wrong to just abort it.

 

Is it more morally wrong for an individual to throw her life away to keep it?

 

you're still working on the premise that a child doesn't have rights until it is born, everyone deserves a chance at life. you making it easier to swallow by rationalizing that the fetus is a parasite, a clump of cells, is based on your personal way of seeing it, i see it as a future human being, one that i'm sure would be appalled if it were to hear that you were thinking of killing it.

 

This is Appeal to Pity and Appeal to Emotion; you're ascribing our mature thoughts and feelings to a clump of cells.

 

furthermore you're giving off the impression that a fetus is an object you can own, and that you can do with it what you please, and that's how you rationalize the mother's choice to decide if it lives or dies.

 

I'm rationalizing the mother's choice to dictate the terms of her own life. You're trying to rationalize something that's clearly not a human being dictating the terms of its mother's life. I fail to see the reasoning behind the anti-abortionist's double-standard.

 

my problem with some pro-choicers is that most of them take the child's possible opinion out of the equation, possibly never considering "does it wanna live?" "will it be important one day?" "i certainly didn't want to be aborted..." i am not evil in believing this.

 

As a fetus, you didn't "want" to be aborted and you didn't "not want" to be aborted. I put quotation marks around those words since a fetus doesn't really have the mental capacity to make moral decisions like that. Fetus' don't have opinions.

 

Pro-abortionists don't consider what the fetus "wants" because pro-abortionists don't recognize the fetus' right to exist since such a right would imply that the mother has no rights and would have to become a breeding pig. They also recognize the fact that there are no contradictions with moral absolutes and that the notion that a mother has no right to her life but the fetus has a right to her life would be a double-standard and therefore, a contradiction.

 

yea that part of pro-choice is fair.

 

What? So we're in agreement now? I'm all for individual rights. The choice of abortion rests solely on the mother--not even the husband or boyfriend. That's why I advocate abortion; the only part that matters is making sure an individual can pursue their own happiness through their rational self-interest.

[Scorpia]

no we're not in an agreement, as far as i'm concerned i explained my reasoning, i propose to agree to disagree. seems fruitless to me too explain it any further than i already have.

[Blue]

While I do have an opinion on the matter, I do not think it should come to bear on anyone since my opinion has no weight;

why should I declare and pronounce what's right and true on matters from which I have no material bearing, or costs and benefits from which I am protected? Since I am not a married man, father, woman, or a priest.

[Lux Arbuckle]

While I do have an opinion on the matter, I do not think it should come to bear on anyone since my opinion has no weight;

why should I declare and pronounce what's right and true on matters from which I have no material bearing, or costs and benefits from which I am protected? Since I am not a married man, father, woman, or a priest.

 

Egg-fucking-zactly.

[reeperskull]

If you don't like abortion don't get one who are you to force your opinion on some one else and tell them whats right or moral.

[Epsilon]

My first post in this thread. I'm not a good debater, but... here goes.

 

The ones getting abortions are forcing their opinions on the fetus as much as we are our opinions on the parents. We're telling them what's right or moral because (yes; I know I'm disregarding what Michael Archer has said about the fetus being alive) the fetus may not be considered alive, but it will grow to be alive. Do you think murder is just? Using that logic, it should be because outlawing it is taking away someone's choice by "forcing your opinion on them."

 

To Michael Archer: I'm fairly certain you're going to demolish this sorry excuse of an argument like a wrecking ball, but I'm interested as to what you have to say about this.

 

You say a fetus should be terminated because it's a parasite, but what if every mother used your argument and decided to have her child terminated? There would be no next generation.

 

Now let's say you were an abortion because clearly you're a parasite that should be killed...

 

You wouldn't be able to make any of the arguments that you have.

[Lux Arbuckle]

You say a fetus should be terminated because it's a parasite, but what if every mother used your argument and decided to have her child terminated? There would be no next generation.

 

Now let's say you were an abortion because clearly you're a parasite that should be killed...

 

You wouldn't be able to make any of the arguments that you have.

 

 

You're just making up an insane circumstance that could not possibly happen. There are people who want children, and there aren't enough doctors in the world to perform enough abortions to end a generation. That's just being silly.

 

I almost was aborted, and, in all honesty, I should have been. My mom didn't need it and if I knew what was going on (which being a cluster of cells, I didn't know, think or feel anything) I would have understood if she choose to get rid of me.

 

An unwanted child is the parasite, not every single baby created.

[Doom Shepherd]

I agree that my right to determine what you do with your body ends at your skin.

However...

You right to do as you please also ends when you ask me to pay for it.

[Epsilon]

You say a fetus should be terminated because it's a parasite, but what if every mother used your argument and decided to have her child terminated? There would be no next generation.

 

Now let's say you were an abortion because clearly you're a parasite that should be killed...

 

You wouldn't be able to make any of the arguments that you have.

 

 

You're just making up an insane circumstance that could not possibly happen. There are people who want children, and there aren't enough doctors in the world to perform enough abortions to end a generation. That's just being silly.

 

I almost was aborted, and, in all honesty, I should have been. My mom didn't need it and if I knew what was going on (which being a cluster of cells, I didn't know, think or feel anything) I would have understood if she choose to get rid of me.

 

An unwanted child is the parasite, not every single baby created.

What do you mean an "unwanted child" is the parasite? Doesn't every fetus suck up its mother's nutrients?

 

Also, I realize that the circumstance is ludicrous, but if Michael Archer is correct (and able to prove his point) about all fetuses being parasites, then every mother would (or should in his eyes) abort any children she conceives.

 

I get the feeling I'm being dense, but that would cause a slow but certain decrease in the Earth's population.

[Lux Arbuckle]

What do you mean an "unwanted child" is the parasite? Doesn't every fetus suck up its mother's nutrients?

 

Also, I realize that the circumstance is ludicrous, but if Michael Archer is correct (and able to prove his point) about all fetuses being parasites, then every mother would (or should in his eyes) abort any children she conceives.

 

I get the feeling I'm being dense, but that would cause a slow but certain decrease in the Earth's population.

 

 

Okay, I'll re-phase the parasite remark. Yes, all fetus' are parasites in a sense, but when the child is unwanted, it's a negative drain as opposed to a loving, happy mother who actually wants the life growing in her. It's all a matter of context, some women can/want to have children, some can't, when they can't or don't want to have the child they should be able to rid themselves of the burden.

 

We have a huge population problem, we should be decreasing the population a bit. It would do us a lot of good in a lot of ways. I think it's ethically irresponsible to be opposed to abortion since it's basically saying you only care about the potential of life, but don't give a shit about it once it's here. Most people who oppose abortion don't also support free schools, free housing, free food, free childcare, maternity/paternity leave, free healthcare, and the importance of adoption of the already living unwanted children on the Earth and that seems an awful lot like evil to me.

 

Straight up evil. I'm being perfectly honest. I see pro-life people as hypocritical monsters, every single one. They fight so hard to get these unwanted lives here, then do nothing to help them or the millions of people who are suffering and in need of help.

[Epsilon]

I'm not offended by you seeing us as hypocrites; I can see why, and I do agree with the population issue; I don't think we should breed endlessly, but I don't see the problem with having a restricted number of children. China may have the right idea with only allowing a certain number of children to be had.

 

About free schools, housing, food, etc... I don't know if we should do it or not, but I do realize the importance of adoption, and I think children should only be conceived if you're 100% prepared to raise them.

 

I guess you could consider my way of thinking pro-life, but in a rather liberal way.

[Axeldeath]

This frickin' China thing again, seriously?

 

If you believe in free will then you wouldn't even dream of thinking that's a good idea. Not only that, but do you know how many babies were killed after birth because they weren't males? What's the point of opposing abortion if the child is just going to get killed after birth anyway.

[Epsilon]

Again? Perhaps someone suggested it in the early pages of the thread which I haven't seen.

 

I meant they only had the right idea with the number of children in a household. Nothing else. Perhaps what I said was rather conspicuous.