Ultranationalism

[BTGBullseye]

Crimea.

And the Crimea River.

[Vapymid]

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

Crimea.

And the Crimea River.

 

 

Regards

 

What?

 

Anyways, looks like the ceasefire isn't holding up very well.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29439743

[Vapymid]

Nope

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

What?

You are dense.

[ThePest179]

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119873/crimeans-are-being-abducted-and-disappearing-after-russias-takeover

 

Well, that's alarming. Not at all surprising though.

[Vapymid]

How can the West solve its Ukraine problem?

 

A strangely level-headed article about Ukraine on the BBC...

 

If there is to be any chance of Ukrainian economic and political progress, a compromise must be found whereby Ukraine can continue to trade as openly as possible with both the EU and Russia and Ukrainians can continue to work freely in Russia.

...

Russia would formally have to abandon - as in effect it already has - hopes to bring Ukraine into a Russian-led bloc.

 

The West would formally have to abandon the possibility of bringing Ukraine into Nato; and the West too has in effect already done this by demonstrating again and again its unwillingness under any circumstances to fight to defend Ukraine.

 

As far as Ukraine's eastern Donbass region is concerned, any solution has to involve very extensive autonomy for the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, guaranteed by the international community - not the ridiculous offer of temporary three-year autonomy which Kiev has offered so far.

 

In addition, the EU should back the guarantee of Russian language rights in Ukraine - not because Moscow is demanding it, but because the West badly needs to assert its own values in the face of the growing power of neo-fascist groups in Ukraine.

 

Opposition to such a deal in certain Western quarters will be bitter; but once again, these opponents need to ask themselves just how much they are prepared to sacrifice and to risk in order to turn Ukraine into a pro-Western and anti-Russian state.

 

The time for blowhard posturing is over. The time for hard economic calculation has begun.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

How can the West solve its Ukraine problem?

 

A strangely level-headed article about Ukraine on the BBC...

 

 

Regards

 

If there is to be any chance of Ukrainian economic and political progress, a compromise must be found whereby Ukraine can continue to trade as openly as possible with both the EU and Russia and Ukrainians can continue to work freely in Russia.

 

When was this an issue before the Maidan?

 

Russia would formally have to abandon -

as in effect it already has

- hopes to bring Ukraine into a Russian-led bloc.

 

Indeed, the strategy now ssems to be "gain the more beneficial parts of the country, radicalize the rest of it, and freeze the conflict".

 

The West would formally have to abandon the possibility of bringing Ukraine into Nato; and the West too has in effect already done this by demonstrating again and again its unwillingness under any circumstances to fight to defend Ukraine.

 

And if Ukraine wanted to join NATO?

 

As far as Ukraine's eastern Donbass region is concerned, any solution has to involve very extensive autonomy for the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, guaranteed by the international community - not the ridiculous offer of temporary three-year autonomy which Kiev has offered so far.

 

The most horseshit part of the whole article. We need a real vote in the Donbass, not the very sketchy ones we currently had. If they desire autonomy after that vote, then Ukraine should grant it.

 

In addition, the EU should back the guarantee of Russian language rights in Ukraine - not because Moscow is demanding it, but because the West badly needs to assert its own values in the face of the growing power of neo-fascist groups in Ukraine.

 

Agreed, but note the parts I bolded. Now what could have possibly caused that, hmm?

 

Opposition to such a deal in certain Western quarters will be bitter; but once again, these opponents need to ask themselves just how much they are prepared to sacrifice and to risk in order to turn Ukraine into a pro-Western and anti-Russian state.

 

Who?

[Vapymid]

Who?

You?

 

And "gain more beneficial parts of the country" - LOL, clearly you have never been to that neck of the woods (but I don't blame you).

 

Anyway, I think I have made my own views on the whole situation and its possible resolution abundantly clear, I see no point repeating it all again.

 

However, I would not mind hearing what could be your proposed solutions?

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

However, I would not mind hearing what could be your proposed solutions?

 

Regards

 

Have a vote in all regions occupied by the "separatists", with international, Western, and Russian observers. If the vote is "go to Russia/independence" by a majority, then Ukraine is to disengage and a DMZ is to be created. If the vote is "return to Ukraine" by a majority, then the "separatists" are to disengage, all Russian "volunteers" and military personel are to leave the country ASAP.

[BTGBullseye]

And what do you consider a 'majority'? What if it's a 49/51 split? Does that mean that 49% of the country has to be enslaved to the vote of the 51%?

[ThePest179]

And what do you consider a 'majority'? What if it's a 49/51 split? Does that mean that 49% of the country has to be enslaved to the vote of the 51%?

 

Enslaved? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

And for the record, a 49/51 split means that there has to be a compromise (like greater autonomy for the region).

[BTGBullseye]

Then define that compromise.

[ThePest179]

Then define that compromise.

 

I just said it. Greater autonomy for the region. Other things like respect for language rights, reconstruction, etc.

 

If evidence arises that Russia is rigging the election like they did previously, or the "separatists" and Russian volunteers/military personnel don't feel like leaving, then the war should continue.

[BTGBullseye]

Ok, so a few more specifics on this 'greater autonomy' thing you keep saying... Please.

 

The 'respect for language rights', how do you propose to make that work? It doesn't even work in the USA, and we've been trying for centuries.

[ThePest179]

Ok, so a few more specifics on this 'greater autonomy' thing you keep saying... Please.

 

I don't know how to specify any further. Greater autonomy means that they can make their own decisions in their own territory, but are still part of Ukraine and have to adhere to Ukrainian laws.

 

The 'respect for language rights', how do you propose to make that work? It doesn't even work in the USA, and we've been trying for centuries.

 

Realistically, I can't. At the very least we need to make sure that it's agreed on.

[Vapymid]

Greater autonomy for the region. Other things like respect for language rights, reconstruction, etc.

 

To be fair, that's exactly what Putin was suggesting before Kiev started the war against the people who were supposed to be their compatriots.

 

If evidence arises that Russia is rigging the election like they did previously

 

Rigging or not, the vote clearly was representative of the real public opinion there. People who are trying to convince themselves otherwise are living in denial.

 

Is it more comfortable to support continued killing of civilians than to accept that those people may actually genuinely prefer to be part of Russia or at least be shielded from being controlled by a hostile regime?

 

or the "separatists" and Russian volunteers/military personnel don't feel like leaving, then the war should continue.

 

It is very clear that as long as the war continues Russia will not drop its support of the rebels. For how long do you propose postponing the inevitable?

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

To be fair, that's exactly what Putin was suggesting

 

When?

 

before Kiev started the war against the people who were supposed to be their compatriots.

 

Russian spetznaz?

 

Rigging or not, the vote clearly was representative of the real public opinion there.

 

It was most certainly not.

 

Is it more comfortable to support continued killing of civilians than to accept that those people may actually genuinely prefer to be part of Russia or at least be shielded from being controlled by a hostile regime?

 

Is it more comfortable to support a near blatant invasion of a sovereign nation? Is it more comfortable to support an obvious lie?

 

I will be honest, the Ukrainian government isn't 100% clean, but that in no way justifies supporting a side that could not be more in the wrong.

[BTGBullseye]

a side that could not be more in the wrong.

On the contrary, it could very much be a LOT more in the wrong, but it isn't.

[ThePest179]

a side that could not be more in the wrong.

On the contrary, it could very much be a LOT more in the wrong, but it isn't.

 

True, true, they're bad, but not ISIS or Nazi level bad.