Ultranationalism

[Vapymid]

a mouthpiece for Russia Today as BTG is for Fox News.

Why does everyone think I watch Russia Today all the time? I practically never get any news from them.

 

Big big Lie...You have very little to back up your words.

Well, you level the charges, it's up to you to prove them, I guess...

 

On a different note - let's hope that this may be the beginning of the end for that crisis:

BBC News: Ukraine agrees 'permanent truce' with rebels in east

 

Regards

 

P.S. - "Ah, not so soon", says the Kremlin - "we cannot agree on a truce as we are not a side to the conflict". The political games will continue for a bit longer, it looks...

 

P.P.S. - "Putin hopes for peace deal by Friday" - oh, well, maybe there's still hope it's real.

[ThePest179]

Big big Lie...You have very little to back up your words.

Well, you level the charges, it's up to you to prove them, I guess...

 

Actually, since you cannot prove your claims (aka "the separatists acted in self defense!") I win.

[Vapymid]

As you wish...

 

But if you are still interested - there is a helpful timeline here on the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275

 

Look starting in April 2014 onwards.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

As you wish...

 

But if you are still interested - there is a helpful timeline here on the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275

 

Look starting in April 2014 onwards.

 

Regards

 

Starting in April, pro-Russian "demonstrators" and militants stormed buildings with very little provocation beforehand.

[Vapymid]

Demonstrators occupying a few buildings - that justifies using tanks and heavy artillery for you? Clutching at straws in this argument, aren't you?

 

Regards

 

P.S. OTOH "Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said they had agreed a "ceasefire process" but PM Arseny Yatsenyuk said no plan from Mr Putin should be trusted." - as if my earlier point about the extent of Poroshenko's power needed any additional proof, it has just been delivered.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Guest (see edit history)

[ThePest179]

Demonstrators occupying a few buildings - that justifies using tanks and heavy artillery for you? Clutching at straws in this argument, aren't you?

 

Regards

 

They were armed and immediately fired on Ukrainian troops who weren't backed by tanks and aircraft until a bit later.

 

And what exactly do you propose Ukraine do to clear out the "rebels"? light infantry with zero armor and artillery?

[Vapymid]

No, you must have read a different website.

 

Yes, first there were protests. Then the government sent tanks and IFVs, which promptly surrendered to the protesters without anyone firing a shot. The government then sent more tanks and troops from the Western regions of the country who started killing of the rebel volunteers at checkpoints. That's how it started.

 

How to clear out the rebels? Well, history says you can't, not without wholesale slaughter of the entire population base of the rebellious region. The rebels rebel for a reason and the fighters are only the tip of the iceberg, a symptom. The only way is to negotiate and try to address the grievances.

 

OK, you can seize a few leaders and punish them as an example and a demonstration of your force, if you can, but you can't start killing the civilians in numbers. If you do, then there are two possible outcomes - a) wholesale slaughter, see as above and b) eventual negotiations from a weaker position than if you didn't start the war originally.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

Yes, first there were protests. Then the government sent tanks and IFVs, which promptly surrendered to the protesters without anyone firing a shot. The government then sent more tanks and troops from the Western regions of the country who started killing of the rebel volunteers at checkpoints. That's how it started.

 

Regards

 

That did not happen. There were protests (not very strong ones either), then armed militants stormed government buildings and fired on Ukrainian troops, sparking a response. Not mention the separatists held a sham referendum which was considered faulty from the few U.N./Western journalists/inspectors there. Your own source shows this.

 

Oh yes, and those defections? I've seen no verification to that, and they were much more likely to be desertion or surrenders rather than joining the separatists wholesale.

[BTGBullseye]

Again, jumping to conclusions that are completely untrue.

[Vapymid]

Interesting you mention the referendum. Firstly, in my opinion, participation in a poll that may not have been approved by the government should not be an offence punishable by heavy artillery shelling. Secondly, according to a BBC news report based on the UN data, over 1 million people have fled the conflict region, out of whom about 80% went to look for shelter in Russia. This actually ties up statistically with the results of the referendum, no matter what its legality was.

 

Isn't it strange that people who are supposedly in mortal fear of the bullying Russia chose to seek refuge there?

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

Interesting you mention the referendum. Firstly, in my opinion, participation in a poll that may not have been approved by the government should not be an offence punishable by heavy artillery shelling. Secondly, according to a BBC news report based on the UN data, over 1 million people have fled the conflict region, out of whom about 80% went to look for shelter in Russia. This actually ties up statistically with the results of the referendum, no matter what its legality was.

 

Isn't it strange that people who are supposedly in mortal fear of the bullying Russia chose to seek refuge there?

 

Regards

 

You move away from the fighting, not toward it. And you refuse to answer my question of what the Ukrainian Army is supposed to fight the rebels with, considering that they fired on Ukrainian troops.

 

Again, jumping to conclusions that are completely untrue.

 

Umm, what?

 

Please don't tell me that you're taking RT's side.

[Vapymid]

You move away from the fighting, not toward it.

 

You mean the other 200-odd thousand were just so moronic that they could not tell where the rockets were coming from and tried to escape towards the front?

 

And you refuse to answer my question of what the Ukrainian Army is supposed to fight the rebels with, considering that they fired on Ukrainian troops.

 

A) they shouldn't have been fighting anyone, shouldn't have been sent there even, in the first place. This is what I've been trying to tell you all along.

 

B) if you do decide to fight against an insurgency then an indiscriminate artillery shelling of residential areas of a large city is not the way to do it because 1) it doesn't work and 2) it is a war crime.

 

Funny, how both in Georgia and now in Ukraine, the valiant forces of "democracy and freedom" have been caught using the same criminal tactics against their own civilian population. Is that because they've been receiving their instructions from the same "advisers"?

 

But, of course, we disregard some other important factors here, such as that the Ukrainian army is poorly equipped (everything is stolen by ministers and high ranking officers before it reaches the front-line troops) and demoralised (the most they could do was the stand-off artillery barrages as the troops would otherwise rebel or defect if ordered to fight hand-to-hand).

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

You move away from the fighting, not toward it.

 

You mean the other 200-odd thousand were just so moronic that they could not tell where the rockets were coming from and tried to escape towards the front?

 

What?

 

A) they shouldn't have been fighting anyone, shouldn't have been sent there even, in the first place. This is what I've been trying to tell you all along.

 

B) if you do decide to fight against an insurgency then an indiscriminate artillery shelling of residential areas of a large city is not the way to do it because 1) it doesn't work and 2) it is a war crime.

 

Regards

 

First, the Ukrainian army was responding to a case of foreign aggression, and had to respond.

Second, the Ukrainian army is not as trigger happy as you keep portraying them. They have shelled civilian areas and it IS wrong, but compared to the rebels the Ukrainians have been much more decent.

[Vapymid]

First, the Ukrainian army was responding to a case of foreign aggression, and had to respond.

 

Hmmm, I think you are totally confused about the events sequence now. Anyway, let's see if the ceasefire will hold and what will come out of further negotiations...

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

Umm, what?

 

Please don't tell me that you're taking RT's side.

It was in response to this, I just didn't notice that there were more posts...

a mouthpiece for Russia Today as BTG is for Fox News.

Why does everyone think I watch Fox News all the time? I almost never get any news from them.

 

My mistake. Conservapedia.

 

Oh, and who is "RT"?

[ThePest179]

Oh, and who is "RT"?

 

RT is an abbreviation for Russia Today. Didn't know you weren't talking about me, sorry.

 

Hmmm, I think you are totally confused about the events sequence now. Anyway, let's see if the ceasefire will hold and what will come out of further negotiations...

 

Regards

 

Not really. Many separatists came from outside Ukraine.

[Vapymid]

These kinds of conflicts always attract people from the outside. Some are hired professionals, but some are volunteers who either go there because they have nothing better to do or to support the cause or when they think it's fun (this I can never fully understand).

 

Last week I saw reports of 2 Czech guys having been killed while fighting on the separatist side...

 

And, of course, in these situations there are always "advisors" and "specialists" from the main antagonists, such as Russia and the US in the case of Ukraine, fighting a proxy war.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

And, of course, in these situations there are always "advisors" and "specialists" from the main antagonists, such as Russia and the US in the case of Ukraine, fighting a proxy war.

 

Regards

 

There are no US advisors in or near Ukraine. Also, when I sais "many" I meant alot of them. Particularly Russians but also others like Armenians.

[ThePest179]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/estonian-officer-abducted-near-border-with-russia-1409928475

[Vapymid]

There are no US advisors in or near Ukraine.

 

Oh. What makes you think so?

 

http://online.wsj.com/articles/estonian-officer-abducted-near-border-with-russia-1409928475

 

I've heard about this too. Probably disrupted some local smugglers operation and they pulled their strings with the authorities. Or could it be a revenge for Obama's tour of Tallinn? Time will tell, but I don't envy that Kohver guy, anyway...

 

Regards