Questions on Freeman's Durability

[BTGBullseye]

III-A, maybe. III, no.

Editing for the mistake. (I must've missed it in my proofread)

 

I think you mean III-A, not II-A. Because II-A is weaker than II by rather a lot.

I specified that it can go through II-A (which is designed to defeat regular and most +P 9mm rounds) and SEASONED II armor, (which has about the same resistance as II-A) but I've seen plenty of tests IRL that lend me to believe it just can't quite get through III-A. (unless it's very old and worn)

[RandomGuy]

More plausible than the HK53 theory, but that would be assuming Half-Life is in 2002 and that seems unlikely. And there being few soldiers left in 2002 is even more unlikely. It seems much more likely this is occurring later, especially if the soldiers really are that bad, since in 2002 we'd have plenty of GOOD soldiers out and available. In 2004 or 2005, this theory would make more since because of the Iraq war, and them wearing PASGT would still be plausible because it did see use by military reserve units for a while.

 

That's possible then. I'm not really too attached to the date. Could be early 2004 instead. Maybe mid 2003. I think I prefer that, as the switch to Interceptor had just begun (so it's very plausible that these guys could still be wearing PASGT), and the build-up of forces in the region in preparation for the war would be significant. Combine that with the ongoing occupation of Afghanistan, and the continued US deployments in Europe and east Asia, and bam, the troops in New Mexico aren't as good or well equipped as they could be. Not to say that the troops sent to Black Mesa in FM were the absolute WORST the US military had (they wouldn't get plates at all in that case, nor would they get stuff like Abrams tanks), but they're definitely not at the top of the stock...

 

However, the big flaws here are that bullets that don't penetrate somebody's armour do very little and the armour would give out before they were seriously impaired, ISAPO was out in the 2000s and they would have plates on, and the armour they wear is clearly too thick and bulky to be PASGT anyway. Not to mention that a special forces unit would have better armour, and HECU is supposed to be special forces.

 

In the test you showed me of the PASGT, we saw the frame behind the vest get f'd up by the impact even when the vest stopped the rounds, and the guys testing it commented on the guy wearing it getting injuries like a broken back. In numerous other tests I've seen, when talking about higher caliber pistol rounds, the tester would comment that, even though the PASGT would STOP the round, the impact would probably kill the wearer anyway. Did they not know what they were talking about? In any case, most of them get shot enough times in the same general area to justify them dying or getting taken down. Maybe not as quickly as they are, and maybe not all of them, but generally it works. On top of that, they are in the New Mexico desert, so it's possible their soft armor may have deteriorated to level II-A or II at this time, like in the tests I've seen (e.g. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-294684.html / http://www.savvysurvivor.com/PASGTarmortest.htm) i.e. enough to stop maybe 2-3 9mm NATO bullets, but wouldn't hold up to the amount of fire Freeman usually slings at them, especially at close range. This is important, as a lot of the times he fires SMG bursts into them at near point blank range (e.g. the three guys at the end of episode 12, the "run around the corner" guys).

 

Yeah, but there were two wars going on at the time. Like I said, this theory would be assuming that many of the troops at Black Mesa didn't get plates (not too far fetched, as the stock of plates was fairly low at the time, there were many troops who were much more deserving of rifle protection, and the military wasn't expecting a full-on alien invasion), and many more of the ones that did just chose not to wear them (also not too far fetched; many of the troops in Mogadishu didn't get back plates, and many more that did still chose not to wear them), resulting in only about a quarter to a third of the soldiers being properly armored.

 

The properly armored soldiers are the ones that Freeman is lucky enough to hit in the head (good thing half of them, as in 3/4 of the models used, don't wear helmets!). Or the ones that get headcrab'd (again, no helmet; I don't know what beret marine, cigar marine, and balaclava marine have against head protection). Or the ones that get poisoned. Or the ones that get beaten to death by super strong aliens (we see Grunts, Vorts, and Zombies do that in some episodes; considering they can smash through concrete, this isn't surprising). Or the ones that get thornet'd. Or the ones that get burned to death. Or the ones that get shot by Freeman when he's using a .50 cal. Or the ones that get blown up (either by Freeman or each other) by things like hand grenades, 40mm grenades, and mines. Or the ones that get killed by other hazards hard body armor wouldn't make them immune to (fell an extraordinary height, crushed by rocks, mowed down by a 5.56 turret, etc.).

 

Probably. But the soldiers in general seem to be oddly proportioned compared to the other human NPCs (they look even bulkier thanks to their backpacks), so if you (like me) just want to not be bothered, you can just assume it's another graphical lapse (I'd even say that, if the designers of this game had any armor in mind when making the marine models, which they probably didn't, it was the PASGT; this was '98). Plus, he seldom spends much time focusing on the soldier models for that to be noticeable anyway.

 

Keep in mind this is my theory for Freeman's Mind, not Half-Life (I'm just assuming the HD pack was canon there). Freeman's Mind obviously changes some things about the base Half-Life universe, including how Freeman's suit functions (for the most part, it's really high quality but otherwise regular plated body armor, rather than powered armor that can oddly both fall to pistol rounds and survive autocannon fire) and how Freeman went through Half-Life (Ross skips some sections, and added in the Uplink teleportation sequence). In Freeman's Mind, I'm assuming these soldiers were just "what's left" as Freeman speculated in episode 59 rather than the well-equipped, top-of-the-line special forces they were in Half-Life itself (or at least Opposing Force).

 

His description of them as "literally mentally retarded" is an exaggeration (they're just stupid in a somewhat realistic way), and they're not BADLY equipped by any means (this theory would still have them getting some plates, after all, when most troops wouldn't have those), but the point is they're not the best the military has to offer, so they're not as well equipped or competent as they could be because of that. The military wasn't really expecting a full invasion, just a clean-up operation for the wildlife, scientists/guards (who would be armed with pistols or shotguns, and wearing light II or II-A armor), and some of the humanoid stragglers. So they thought that a bunch of guys with soft PASGT armor, shotguns, and submachine guns, supported by some choppers, would be enough to cover everything up. Few initially had plates, and fewer still chose to wear them (an example of someone who did could be the first soldier Freeman encountered, and who he shot in the face). After things got out of control due to an organized attack by the Xenian military (Vortigaunts/Grunts/Gargantuas/Flyers), the military started rolling in the big guns (howitzers, bombers, tanks, more troops with sniper rifles and .50 cals, etc.). Yet they still couldn't give plates to more than half of the soldiers they sent, simply because they didn't have any on hand, weren't expecting such heavy resistance, and weren't expecting to have to deploy so many troops. As a result, most of the soldiers Freeman encounters throughout the game are only wearing soft II-A/II/III-A armor. Even worse, a lot of the soldiers are dumb, so a lot of the soldiers that got plates just chose not to wear them, bringing the "properly armored" portion of the force closer to a quarter or a third. To make things EVEN WORSE, a bunch of the soldiers didn't even wear helmets (which they should ALL have been issued), even if they wore plates.

 

Alright then. But I'm out in the sticks so don't expect a rapid response.

 

That's fine, I didn't expect one anyway.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Guest (see edit history)

[Seattleite]

I specified that it can go through II-A (which is designed to defeat regular and most +P 9mm rounds) and SEASONED II armor, (which has about the same resistance as II-A) but I've seen plenty of tests IRL that lend me to believe it just can't quite get through III-A. (unless it's very old and worn)

 

BTG, go back and reread it. You said, and I quote:

 

(and +P+ can defeat class II, and old class II-A armor)

 

Either you meant "class II-A, and old class II" or you meant "class II, and old class III-A". Because, as I said, II-A is weaker than II, so it being able to defeat class II but not II-A unless the II-A is old makes no sense. I went with the latter because it seemed more likely you had a small typo than got your sentence backwards.

 

And so you know, I've seen PASGT vests that took enough UV damage on tour to be defeated by 9mm bullets.

 

Oh, and Randomguy, I'll give your post here a proper response tomorrow, but I don't know if I'll have time tonight. (Basically just making dinner and going to bed.)

[RandomGuy]

Again, that's fine. I'll just be grateful if you respond at all!

[BTGBullseye]

I specified that it can go through II-A (which is designed to defeat regular and most +P 9mm rounds) and SEASONED II armor, (which has about the same resistance as II-A) but I've seen plenty of tests IRL that lend me to believe it just can't quite get through III-A. (unless it's very old and worn)

 

BTG, go back and reread it. You said, and I quote:

 

(and +P+ can defeat class II, and old class II-A armor)

 

Either you meant "class II-A, and old class II" or you meant "class II, and old class III-A". Because, as I said, II-A is weaker than II, so it being able to defeat class II but not II-A unless the II-A is old makes no sense. I went with the latter because it seemed more likely you had a small typo than got your sentence backwards.

 

And so you know, I've seen PASGT vests that took enough UV damage on tour to be defeated by 9mm bullets.

*facepalm* I need to quit having these copy-paste typos... (I copied parts of it and moved it around so it looked good, but somehow managed to put the -A behind the second instead of the first II) They get in the way of good conversations about armor penetration. (editing the previous post to have the proper order)

[Seattleite]

You're copy+pasting? Well there's your problem. Stop doing that.

[BTGBullseye]

Copy+pasting to rearrange what I type... It takes about 6 different layouts for me to get anything more than 3 sentences to look right.

[Seattleite]

And now you're the one taking a joke too seriously.

[BTGBullseye]

Being specific... Didn't matter if it was a joke or not, I would've responded the same.

[Seattleite]

That's possible then. I'm not really too attached to the date. Could be early 2004 instead. Maybe mid 2003. I think I prefer that, as the switch to Interceptor had just begun (so it's very plausible that these guys could still be wearing PASGT), and the build-up of forces in the region in preparation for the war would be significant. Combine that with the ongoing occupation of Afghanistan, and the continued US deployments in Europe and east Asia, and bam, the troops in New Mexico aren't as good or well equipped as they could be. Not to say that the troops sent to Black Mesa in FM were the absolute WORST the US military had (they wouldn't get plates at all in that case, nor would they get stuff like Abrams tanks), but they're definitely not at the top of the stock...

 

Still not my favourite theory, but it works well enough.

 

In the test you showed me of the PASGT, we saw the frame behind the vest get f'd up by the impact even when the vest stopped the rounds, and the guys testing it commented on the guy wearing it getting injuries like a broken back.

 

1. The frame was already bent.

2. They don't know what they're talking about. No firearm has enough power to do that.

 

In numerous other tests I've seen, when talking about higher caliber pistol rounds, the tester would comment that, even though the PASGT would STOP the round, the impact would probably kill the wearer anyway. Did they not know what they were talking about?

 

That's shorthand for "I'm a fucking moron and you should dismiss EVERYTHING I say."

 

In any case, most of them get shot enough times in the same general area to justify them dying or getting taken down. Maybe not as quickly as they are, and maybe not all of them, but generally it works. On top of that, they are in the New Mexico desert, so it's possible their soft armor may have deteriorated to level II-A or II at this time, like in the tests I've seen (e.g. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-294684.html / http://www.savvysurvivor.com/PASGTarmortest.htm) i.e. enough to stop maybe 2-3 9mm NATO bullets, but wouldn't hold up to the amount of fire Freeman usually slings at them, especially at close range. This is important, as a lot of the times he fires SMG bursts into them at near point blank range (e.g. the three guys at the end of episode 12, the "run around the corner" guys).

 

Look, I still don't like this theory because I know how a human body performs and even without armour they wouldn't drop like that. And even badly degraded PASGT still usually stops 9mm bullets.

 

Probably. But the soldiers in general seem to be oddly proportioned compared to the other human NPCs (they look even bulkier thanks to their backpacks), so if you (like me) just want to not be bothered, you can just assume it's another graphical lapse (I'd even say that, if the designers of this game had any armor in mind when making the marine models, which they probably didn't, it was the PASGT; this was '98). Plus, he seldom spends much time focusing on the soldier models for that to be noticeable anyway.

 

I doubt they had any particular armour in mind when the game was made.

 

Keep in mind this is my theory for Freeman's Mind, not Half-Life (I'm just assuming the HD pack was canon there). Freeman's Mind obviously changes some things about the base Half-Life universe, including how Freeman's suit functions (for the most part, it's really high quality but otherwise regular plated body armor, rather than powered armor that can oddly both fall to pistol rounds and survive autocannon fire) and how Freeman went through Half-Life (Ross skips some sections, and added in the Uplink teleportation sequence). In Freeman's Mind, I'm assuming these soldiers were just "what's left" as Freeman speculated in episode 59 rather than the well-equipped, top-of-the-line special forces they were in Half-Life itself (or at least Opposing Force).

 

Well, I don't like to think of the two as overly separate, but that's just me I guess.

 

His description of them as "literally mentally retarded" is an exaggeration (they're just stupid in a somewhat realistic way), and they're not BADLY equipped by any means (this theory would still have them getting some plates, after all, when most troops wouldn't have those), but the point is they're not the best the military has to offer, so they're not as well equipped or competent as they could be because of that. The military wasn't really expecting a full invasion, just a clean-up operation for the wildlife, scientists/guards (who would be armed with pistols or shotguns, and wearing light II or II-A armor), and some of the humanoid stragglers. So they thought that a bunch of guys with soft PASGT armor, shotguns, and submachine guns, supported by some choppers, would be enough to cover everything up. Few initially had plates, and fewer still chose to wear them (an example of someone who did could be the first soldier Freeman encountered, and who he shot in the face). After things got out of control due to an organized attack by the Xenian military (Vortigaunts/Grunts/Gargantuas/Flyers), the military started rolling in the big guns (howitzers, bombers, tanks, more troops with sniper rifles and .50 cals, etc.). Yet they still couldn't give plates to more than half of the soldiers they sent, simply because they didn't have any on hand, weren't expecting such heavy resistance, and weren't expecting to have to deploy so many troops. As a result, most of the soldiers Freeman encounters throughout the game are only wearing soft II-A/II/III-A armor. Even worse, a lot of the soldiers are dumb, so a lot of the soldiers that got plates just chose not to wear them, bringing the "properly armored" portion of the force closer to a quarter or a third. To make things EVEN WORSE, a bunch of the soldiers didn't even wear helmets (which they should ALL have been issued), even if they wore plates.

 

That's a lot of overthinking an 8-minute internet show. Sure you aren't willing to just recite the MST3K mantra? Especially since, for the record, even the military isn't THAT incompetent?

 

Also, in the 2000s, police had already updated to a nice, strong body armour. NIJ-II for most of the body, III-A for the plates. Security guards at a high-priority government facility would have *better* armour than the police, and for the art and in-game model it appears to be plated over the entire torso. That means *at least* III-A protection over the entire torso, and a likely roughly equal helmet. (Although no arm or leg armour. Which is why I made Barney Calhoun's weak spots his arms and legs.)

[RandomGuy]

Still not my favourite theory, but it works well enough.

 

Cool. I will now never obsess over this again... well, not for a while anyway...

 

2. They don't know what they're talking about. No firearm has enough power to do that.

That's shorthand for "I'm a fucking moron and you should dismiss EVERYTHING I say."

 

Good to know.

 

Look, I still don't like this theory because I know how a human body performs and even without armour they wouldn't drop like that. And even badly degraded PASGT still usually stops 9mm bullets.

 

Yeah, the human body takes a long time to give out and can be surprisingly durable. I never said it was perfect, it's just me trying to find some plausibility in this. "He falls and dies instantly rather than slowly bleeding out and fighting for a while" just bothers me less than "he falls and dies instantly even though he's wearing heavy body armor that should make him outright immune to the weapon he's being shot with". I guess here it just bothers me more because it otherwise tries to be somewhat "realistic" as a way to parody the game (e.g. Freeman noticing that he can just climb a seven foot ledge rather than go through a death trap with tentacle aliens, soldiers, mines, and turrets).

 

I know, but I was saying that it would only take a relatively small amount of 9mm bullets to get through (like in the tests I've seen, where for example two bullets to roughly the same area at 10 meters was enough to get through).

 

I doubt they had any particular armour in mind when the game was made.

 

That's my point. They weren't thinking about what the armor looked like, they just wanted to make the soldiers look intimidating and 'official'.

 

Well, I don't like to think of the two as overly separate, but that's just me I guess.

 

I don't think a minor change like how much body armor some soldiers were wearing is that big of a deal when you consider the changes that have already been made, like Freeman not traversing areas he "canonically" did, the changes to how the HEV suit functions, the addition of the Uplink teleportation sequence, and Freeman's ability to do pull-ups.

 

That's a lot of overthinking an 8-minute internet show. Sure you aren't willing to just recite the MST3K mantra? Especially since, for the record, even the military isn't THAT incompetent?

 

Hey! Some of the episodes are up to TWELVE minutes! And it's not THAT incompetent. At least, going by the bar HL1's plot already set*. Nor is it even supremely unrealistic.

 

But yeah, I am over thinking things, I admit that. Like I said, I'm just an in-universe freak who tries to get everything to at least make a little bit of sense. It seems I've come up with a theory or two that do just that, so mission accomplished I guess.

 

Anyway, thanks for all of the responses and sources, this has been a very enjoyable conversation.

 

* "We don't trust our top secret researchers, and we need to keep this all secret for some reason, so let's send special forces to kill them along with the aliens. Their families won't notice, we'll just write it off as a... plane accident. Over a thousand people were on the plane. Yeah. Also, let's order them to kill all the security guards, too, so they can't do their jobs. And make sure to shoot them on sight rather than just rounding them up. Then, when that's done, we send OTHER special forces to kill the ones we already sent."

[ThePest179]

Still not my favourite theory, but it works well enough.

 

What is your favorite?

 

"We don't trust our top secret researchers, and we need to keep this all secret for some reason, so let's send special forces to kill them along with the aliens. Their families won't notice, we'll just write it off as a... plane accident. Over a thousand people were on the plane. Yeah. Also, let's order them to kill all the security guards, too, so they can't do their jobs. And make sure to shoot them on sight rather than just rounding them up. Then, when that's done, we send OTHER special forces to kill the ones we already sent."

 

Someone's been on TVTropes recently.

 

Seriously though, if we wanted the most realistic rendition of what should have happened, the HECU/US Marines should have rounded up the scientists for later murder, used security guards as cannon fodder, and cover it all up with "nuclear meltdown" or some stupid statement like that. No idea why they don't trust their own researchers, but if I had to guess it would have something to do with people who don't know about the aliens and Xen, and the few who do, and making sure that they're silent about it. Black Ops weren't killing Marines until after the general withdrawal, though (still ridiculous). As Freeman pointed out, it's a mystery as to how they would keep this a secret with the Marines.

 

I need to stop questioning game logic.

[RandomGuy]

Huh? I was just describing the plot of the game. I've always wondered why they just shot the scientists on sight rather than round them up. Or what the hell the security guards were even for if the military was just going to have them executed the minute things went wrong. Okay, maybe you don't trust the researchers because mad science or whatever. But the guards? How are they so much different than the soldiers? Couldn't you just work WITH them, and/or only take out the researchers directly involved in the incident? You have no reason to not trust the rest of the team about as well as you trust the marines.

 

But of course, it can't go like that. They have to blindly shoot everyone, because the game needed human enemies. Which I'm fine with. Opposing Force's plot was just stupid, though, because there's literally no reason for the black ops to kill the marines. At least the HL1 offered a flimsy excuse, OF doesn't even bother.

 

Anyway, what do you (Pest) think of my two "desperate-reaching-and-trying-to-salvage-a-tiny-shred-of-sense" explanations? Which do you prefer? I think I prefer the second one.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Guest (see edit history)

[ThePest179]

Huh? I was just describing the plot of the game.

 

I was reading TVTropes on the Half Life page, and a troper said almost the exact same thing you did.

 

Opposing Force's plot was just stupid, though, because there's literally no reason for the black ops to kill the marines. At least the HL1 offered a flimsy excuse, OF doesn't even bother.

 

Which of course got a lampshade in Shepard's Mind.

 

I think it has something to do with inter-service rivalry, but that's still excessively stupid.

[RandomGuy]

Huh? I was just describing the plot of the game.

 

I was reading TVTropes on the Half Life page, and a troper said almost the exact same thing you did.

 

Opposing Force's plot was just stupid, though, because there's literally no reason for the black ops to kill the marines. At least the HL1 offered a flimsy excuse, OF doesn't even bother.

 

Which of course got a lampshade in Shepard's Mind.

 

I think it has something to do with inter-service rivalry, but that's still excessively stupid.

 

I haven't been on TVTropes for well over a year, ever since I got banned, so that's probably coincidence. There's only so many ways you can write out the plot to the game, after all.

 

That still doesn't really make any sense. Killing the people who work at the facility is dumb enough, but there's absolutely no reason to kill the soldiers. The only reason it was done was to give you human enemies, and with the introduction of Race X, especially the tactically smart Shock Troopers, I thought that was unneeded. Just have Race X troops replace the black ops, and introduce a couple new Race X units to replace the black ops machine gun nests and their one attack helicopter. If there's not enough variety, make the Xen aliens have more of a presence too.

 

What do you think of my two "explanations", by the way?

[ThePest179]

What do you think of my two "explanations", by the way?

 

I'm undecided. To be perfectly honest, it isn't a big issue for me.

[RandomGuy]

What do you think of my two "explanations", by the way?

 

I'm undecided. To be perfectly honest, it isn't a big issue for me.

 

Just wondering, 'cause you said you bought the HK53 one earlier. I think I prefer the newer one, where it actually is an MP5, but one half to two thirds of them aren't properly armored and are just wearing PASGT vests, and the ones who are properly armored are the ones who get taken out by threats that plated armor wouldn't protect them against (like getting shot in the head, beaten to death by Vorts/Zombies/Grunts, getting blown up, etc.). Makes everything work without any headache.

[Seattleite]

Just to weigh in on the Opposing Force hate, I'd like to say three things:

 

1. The Black Ops are planting a nuke in the area the troops are in and setting it off. The troops don't know this, and it's best if it stays that way. So the Black Ops trying to kill marines who find out they're not the real clean-up crew, they're just keeping people and aliens from escaping until the bomb goes off, DOES make sense. But telling the troops that's what they're doing and providing them a solid extraction plan so they'll be out of harm's way before the bomb goes off would have been a better idea for a couple reasons. Mainly, less waste of good (and EXPENSIVE) troops, more moral (that is a benefit, believe it or not, as there will be some people who know about it and if they don't feel guilty they won't tell anyone) and the troops and black ops will perform MUCH better working together.

 

2. If they wanted human-like opponents, they should have just made some even more more humanoid Race X members to complement the shock troopers. Something smaller, less powerful, with a variety of weapons and the ability to throw spore grenades. Maybe also made the xenian enemies more common, especially the vorts and grunts, maybe included controllers in a few spots. Bam, large enemy variety and enemies that can use the regular and assassin human AI and abilities and had all the multi-faction fights they wanted, problem solved WITHOUT making the military look both evil for evil's sake AND incredibly stupid. Probably could have even added a couple new weapons for those enemies, emplacements and vehicles for race X (with some alien cannon and gargantua fights for Xen), and gotten even more enemy variety and higher quality human-like enemies out of it than they currently did. All-around superior option.

 

3. I'd do it myself if I had the ability. Make the Black Ops into allies and reduce their numbers to fit, insert new Race X enemies based on the various human models (scientist, security, assassin and marine models and behaviours, altered for Race X and given Race X weapons) into the fights they used to be in, use the Xenian cannon to fill in the turret sections and have Race X hijack the mortar as you approach instead of Black Ops shooting at you. I can even think of the kinds of new Race X guns to add for them. I actually LIKE Opposing Force, as weird as that may sound to some people, and I would gladly improve it if I could.

[RandomGuy]

Don't get me wrong, I love Opposing Force too. The plot just made no sense.

[ThePest179]

Just wondering, 'cause you said you bought the HK53 one earlier. I think I prefer the newer one, where it actually is an MP5, but one half to two thirds of them aren't properly armored and are just wearing PASGT vests, and the ones who are properly armored are the ones who get taken out by threats that plated armor wouldn't protect them against (like getting shot in the head, beaten to death by Vorts/Zombies/Grunts, getting blown up, etc.). Makes everything work without any headache.

 

If Half Life takes place 2002-2004, then I'll take the "not sufficient armor" theory, if it's 2007-2009, then the "HK53" theory is enough for me.