Questions on Freeman's Durability

[ThePest179]

Or maybe the HECU just have really shitty armor.

 

Do regular US Marines have shitty armor? No? Then where did you get that? I personally believe in the HK53 theory. I mean, there isn't any other logical explanation for why a US Marine wearing modern body armor would die after getting shot only a few times.

[Seattleite]

Or maybe the HECU just have really shitty armor.

 

Do regular US Marines have shitty armor? No? Then where did you get that? I personally believe in the HK53 theory. I mean, there isn't any other logical explanation for why a US Marine wearing modern body armor would die after getting shot only a few times.

 

Except:

 

1. The HK53 theory is clearly bullshit since the pistol and MP5 share ammo.

 

2. Even if it wasn't bullshit, the HK53 is a 5.56 and still couldn't defeat modern armour in a few shots because there is no way it could get through the trauma plates and everywhere there's not a trauma plate you can't stop somebody with it without shooting them quite a bit.

 

3. The number of shots the marines take still wouldn't be incapacitating with an HK53 even if they weren't wearing armour.

 

4. This theory doesn't explain how Freeman's pistol and shotgun can hurt the marines even though they would both be completely useless.

[RandomGuy]

Or maybe the HECU just have really shitty armor.

 

Do regular US Marines have shitty armor? No? Then where did you get that? I personally believe in the HK53 theory. I mean, there isn't any other logical explanation for why a US Marine wearing modern body armor would die after getting shot only a few times.

 

Except:

 

1. The HK53 theory is clearly bullshit since the pistol and MP5 share ammo.

 

2. Even if it wasn't bullshit, the HK53 is a 5.56 and still couldn't defeat modern armour in a few shots because there is no way it could get through the trauma plates and everywhere there's not a trauma plate you can't stop somebody with it without shooting them quite a bit.

 

3. The number of shots the marines take still wouldn't be incapacitating with an HK53 even if they weren't wearing armour.

 

4. This theory doesn't explain how Freeman's pistol and shotgun can hurt the marines even though they would both be completely useless.

 

1. In HL. In FM, we don't know. This wouldn't be the first change. As for HL itself, the HD pack changes it to a rifle anyway (which still takes ten shots to down a soldier on normal) and the ammo pick ups clearly are not for an MP5, so whatever.

 

2. It would still be able to defeat it after some shots. Also, you haven't answered my question. Would every single soldier be wearing something that tough in the late 90s/early 2000s? Also, unrelated, but is 5.56 really that weak? Because standard US military body armor is designed to shatter after a couple rifle hits IIRC. Not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious.

 

3. True. People don't go down quickly in real life unless you hit the head or something. But that was necessary for the game and unchangeable in the series.

 

4. Lucky shots. As I said, I don't see these tracers you're talking about, at least not with any regularity or precision. On the other hand, I do see blood "spray" coming from the soldiers' heads a lot. As for the game... yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Even high quality soft body armor would render them extremely resistant. But eh, this is the same game where the revolver does more damage than the .50 machine gun.

[Seattleite]

1. In HL. In FM, we don't know. This wouldn't be the first change. As for HL itself, the HD pack changes it to a rifle anyway (which still takes ten shots to down a soldier on normal) and the ammo pick ups clearly are not for an MP5, so whatever.

 

2. It would still be able to defeat it after some shots. Also, you haven't answered my question. Would every single soldier be wearing something that tough in the late 90s/early 2000s? Also, unrelated, but is 5.56 really that weak? Because standard US military body armor is designed to shatter after a couple rifle hits IIRC. Not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious.

 

3. True. People don't go down quickly in real life unless you hit the head or something. But that was necessary for the game and unchangeable in the series.

 

4. Lucky shots. As I said, I don't see these tracers you're talking about, at least not with any regularity or precision. On the other hand, I do see blood "spray" coming from the soldiers' heads a lot. As for the game... yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Even high quality soft body armor would render them extremely resistant. But eh, this is the same game where the revolver does more damage than the .50 machine gun.

 

1. A rifle still chambered in 9mm, need I remind you.

 

2. Those in active combat, especially close combat, roles? YES. And the game takes place in the 2000s anyway, it says it quite clearly. May 200X, according to the manual and all other official sources. And yes, in the 2000s, soldiers outfitted for heavy close combat would be wearing armour made out of kevlar, with chainmail inlays to resist shrapnel, padded to reduce the impact from bullets and with boron-carbide inlay plates covering their chest and upper back. They would be quite nearly immune to small arms fire, and rifle fire could not enter their chest.

 

And yes, the 5.56 IS that weak. The round has too little mass and can't sufficiently damage a boron carbide plate unless it's fixed in place. The plates in armour are not fixed in place. You need to pierce kevlar just to get to them, which disperses the impact slightly and slows the bullet a bit, then the chainmail beneath helps spread the impact out over the padding that softens the impact by allowing the plate to move back from the shot and spread out the force over time and partially put it into the padding and target while diffusing it too much to be harmful, so the plate takes much less damage from the bullet and the wearer takes almost none. It would take dozens to penetrate modern trauma plates, and even 1990s plates could take 6-8 with no trouble.

 

3. Head or heart, and you can do a lot better than the instant-death bullet nonsense of Freeman's Mind if you're concerned with realism. (I get that Ross isn't, so I'm not going to give him any shit about it.) Even with the crappy hitpoint system used in Half-Life, you can do better than they did. (And I think my mod is much closer, if you want to see what I think is better.)

 

4. And since my case is that the game and series are extremely unrealistic, talking about how unrealistic the game is acts as an argument against my position HOW?

[ThePest179]

They would be quite nearly immune to small arms fire, and rifle fire could not enter their chest.

 

So modern weapons (made by the US, no less) are completely useless against modern body armor? I'm generally curious as to how that works.

 

(And I think my mod is much closer, if you want to see what I think is better.)

 

Do you have a video to show us? My computer is really shitty with mods, I usually can't get them to work.

[BTGBullseye]

So modern weapons (made by the US, no less) are completely useless against modern body armor? I'm generally curious as to how that works.

Armor and weapons always work in a trade-off cycle... Think of it like this...

 

You make a weapon...

Someone makes and armor that defeats your weapon...

You make a better weapon that defeats the armor...

Someone makes a better armor that defeats your better weapon...

You make a better weapon that defeats the armor...

Someone makes a better armor that defeats your better weapon...

You make a better weapon that defeats the armor...

Someone makes a better armor that defeats your better weapon...

You make a better weapon that defeats the armor...

Someone makes a better armor that defeats your better weapon...

ETC.

 

We're in the better armor section, and in the process of coming up with better weapons.

[RandomGuy]

1. A rifle still chambered in 9mm, need I remind you.

 

That's just a game play induced plot hole. The model for both the weapon and the ammo pick-ups clearly shows it to be a 5.56 rifle (also, it doesn't share ammo with the pistol in the PS2 version).

 

2. Those in active combat, especially close combat, roles? YES. And the game takes place in the 2000s anyway, it says it quite clearly. May 200X, according to the manual and all other official sources. And yes, in the 2000s, soldiers outfitted for heavy close combat would be wearing armour made out of kevlar, with chainmail inlays to resist shrapnel, padded to reduce the impact from bullets and with boron-carbide inlay plates covering their chest and upper back. They would be quite nearly immune to small arms fire, and rifle fire could not enter their chest.

 

A game manual says it. What else does? Other manuals? Because they quite clearly contradict the game in certain places.

 

I thought that hard armor capable of withstanding rifle shots was only standardized around the beginning of the Iraq War? I'm probably wrong about this, but wasn't the standard armor right before the war the PASGT vest, which is unofficially a IIA-II vest (because it was never officially rated as it was only designed to stop fragmentation, even if it can also stop pistol rounds), while only a few of them got the rifle-"proof" plates?

 

Wait, chainmail?

 

And yes, the 5.56 IS that weak. The round has too little mass and can't sufficiently damage a boron carbide plate unless it's fixed in place. The plates in armour are not fixed in place. You need to pierce kevlar just to get to them, which disperses the impact slightly and slows the bullet a bit, then the chainmail beneath helps spread the impact out over the padding that softens the impact by allowing the plate to move back from the shot and spread out the force over time and partially put it into the padding and target while diffusing it too much to be harmful, so the plate takes much less damage from the bullet and the wearer takes almost none. It would take dozens to penetrate modern trauma plates, and even 1990s plates could take 6-8 with no trouble.

 

So the standard rifle used by the United States military, and the caliber used by both it and many other weapons, is completely useless against modern hard body armor, to the extent that they'd have to shoot someone like ten times to really hurt them? That sounds weird, yet interesting. Do you have any sources on this for further reading? I always thought that modern ceramic body armor was specifically designed to shatter after a few shots.

 

3. Head or heart, and you can do a lot better than the instant-death bullet nonsense of Freeman's Mind if you're concerned with realism. (I get that Ross isn't, so I'm not going to give him any shit about it.) Even with the crappy hitpoint system used in Half-Life, you can do better than they did. (And I think my mod is much closer, if you want to see what I think is better.)

 

I'm not, I'm just concerned with the whole thing making a little bit of sense. The HK53 + lucky shots with pistol and shotgun theory does that, as even though the soldiers still go down way too quickly (like pretty much every video game, since most don't have a wound system and just work on hit points), it's still a huge step-up from shooting them with a weapon they should be nigh-immune to. We can also assume that shots that are technically missing in-game are actually supposed to be hitting the target in FM, just because we can't explicitly see them miss (that seemed to be the intention with the shotgun in episode 14, at the very least), though I admit that's a big stretch.

 

We see him hit enemies in the head a lot (I can't see tracers, in the game or the series, but I do see blood "puffs" coming out of the head area), but we also occasionally see him take down soldiers with shotgun blasts to the torso, when even the Barneys should be able to survive that. He also keeps filling up the soldiers with bullets even after the game technically registers them as "dead", so we can also assume that him shooting them that many times plays a part in killing them, though that only explains so much given that he doesn't do that all the time, and sometimes even when he does it wouldn't be enough bullets. So it's a mixed bag. I dunno, you and others can go ahead and not care, but I just like trying to fix things in my mind, even if I have to reach sometimes.

 

On your mod: it mostly looks good, though I haven't tried it yet. I'm actually a bit scared to due to what looks like a huge difficulty spike. The only thing I disagree on is the Grunts doing so little damage, as they were the elite soldiers of the Xenian army, and it makes no sense for their weapons to deal "pitiful damage". There's a lot of ways that "thornets" could be damaging weapons, as has been pointed out. It's a video game. Also, if the aim is to make it more realistic (I'd play it with the HD pack, so at least the MP5 would be less of a problem), then why do the shotgun and pistol even work on the human soldiers at all?

 

Actually, one of the reasons I made this topic was because I was bothered by Ross's comments in an old podcast five years ago- he said that he found it really unrealistic and immersion-breaking when he had to shoot the soldiers ten times to bring them down. He also said that even if someone is wearing body armor, he finds it really implausible if one shotgun blast doesn't take them down, even if they are wearing body armor. I actually heard him say something very recently about it; something like "While body armor can make 9mm rounds nonlethal, I don't know of many people who are going to be STANDING after being shot 3 times, let alone fully combat effective." I don't pretend to be a military expert, but even I know that the unrealistic part was that pistol bullets were bringing them down at all. I mean, a few MP5 shots would probably be enough to take them down (if not that quickly) if they were just wearing PASGT vests, but otherwise...

 

That, and I wanted to hear what other people thought about Freeman's durability in this series, and what the limits of his HEV suit were. At the very least it seems clear that .50 BMG = dead Freeman, going both by Freeman's statements and some of Ross's posts here. Also, explosives (grenades, mines, rockets, etc.), autocannons (e.g. the one used by the Bradley), super strong aliens (zombies, Grunts), super big aliens (Gargantuas, Tentacles), barnacles, etc.

 

4. And since my case is that the game and series are extremely unrealistic, talking about how unrealistic the game is acts as an argument against my position HOW?

 

I'm not arguing that the game or series are realistic, just that some things might not be quite as implausible as they look.

[Seattleite]

That's just a game play induced plot hole. The model for both the weapon and the ammo pick-ups clearly shows it to be a 5.56 rifle (also, it doesn't share ammo with the pistol in the PS2 version).

 

Well if the game says it's a 9mm, I'm going to assume it's a 9mm. I have no reason to disbelieve it, especially since I don't use the HD pack in Half-Life and there is no equivalent for Black Mesa.

 

A game manual says it. What else does? Other manuals? Because they quite clearly contradict the game in certain places.

 

Yes, a manual says it. So does the timeline. But even assuming it was just a manual, SO WHAT? It's the only source on the matter, nothing contradicts it and it's a reasonable time for it to be occurring.

 

I thought that hard armor capable of withstanding rifle shots was only standardized around the beginning of the Iraq War?

 

There's been inlaid plates for quite a while. They just added the chainmail and better plates in the Iraq war.

 

Wait, chainmail?

 

Yes, there's chainmail in body armour now. It's between the layers of kevlar, just under the trauma plates. It's meant to stop shrapnel and other minor edged weapons that would flat-out ignore any thickness of kevlar. It can't stop a serious edged weapon, if somebody had a big knife they could get through, but it works on shrapnel. And that's why it's there. There were serious concerns with IEDs in the Iraq war, the soldiers wanted something in their armour that could resist shrapnel and they got it. They also upgraded the inlaid plates about the same time.

 

So the standard rifle used by the United States military, and the caliber used by both it and many other weapons, is completely useless against modern hard body armor, to the extent that they'd have to shoot someone like ten times to really hurt them? That sounds weird, yet interesting. Do you have any sources on this for further reading? I always thought that modern ceramic body armor was specifically designed to shatter after a few shots.

 

A few shots from a REAL rifle, sure. A 7.62x51mm would only be stopped 2-3 times. The 5.56 is just a really, really, REALLY crappy round for defeating hard armour.

 

And, technically, if you hit exactly the same place, you could get through on the second 7.62x51mm round or maybe the third or fourth 5.56x45mm round. But the odds of you hitting the exact same place are so slim as to barely be worth talking about. And the plating only covers the chest, keep in mind.

 

I'm not, I'm just concerned with the whole thing making a little bit of sense. The HK53 + lucky shots with pistol and shotgun theory does that, as even though the soldiers still go down way too quickly (like pretty much every video game, since most don't have a wound system and just work on hit points), it's still a huge step-up from shooting them with a weapon they should be nigh-immune to.

 

I still don't like the HK53 theory, but that's for in-game reasons. You can subscribe to it if you want, but I don't.

 

We can also assume that shots that are technically missing in-game are actually supposed to be hitting the target in FM, just because we can't explicitly see them miss (that seemed to be the intention with the shotgun in episode 14, at the very least), though I admit that's a big stretch.

 

Then the guy who never handled a gun before is a ballistic wunderkind? That's silly as hell, but it still makes more sense than what we're seeing, I'll go with it.

 

We see him hit enemies in the head a lot (I can't see tracers, in the game or the series, but I do see blood "puffs" coming out of the head area), but we also occasionally see him take down soldiers with shotgun blasts to the torso, when even the Barneys should be able to survive that.

 

The guards should be able to take quite a bit of that, actually. Even at point blank, it'd only knock the wind out of them and maybe break a rib.

 

He also keeps filling up the soldiers with bullets even after the game technically registers them as "dead", so we can also assume that him shooting them that many times plays a part in killing them, though that only explains so much given that he doesn't do that all the time, and sometimes even when he does it wouldn't be enough bullets. So it's a mixed bag. I dunno, you and others can go ahead and not care, but I just like trying to fix things in my mind, even if I have to reach sometimes.

 

It's bullshit. We all know it's bullshit. You're wasting your time justifying it, because we all know it makes the show go a lot faster and that's important. And if you want to keep pondering it, here's some fantastic advice from an ancient TV show on the matter.

 

4Ugebzq3juE

 

On your mod: it mostly looks good, though I haven't tried it yet. I'm actually a bit scared to due to what looks like a huge difficulty spike.

 

You have NO idea. Oh, and you need to play on hard to get the best picture. Although I should let you know that Freeman's armour lets him tank hits like a champ and the early sections before the marines show up you're going to feel like superman. ("Oh, a headcrab. It did a single point of damage. My turn." *SPLAT*) Once the marines do show up, even though they're not nearly as tough as you the encounters with them will likely drain a huge chunk of your resources, armour charge and health.

 

Also, just realised I made a slight typo regarding Freeman's head and then repeated it over and over. Freeman's head was only taking half the damage it was supposed to be. I fixed it.

 

The only thing I disagree on is the Grunts doing so little damage, as they were the elite soldiers of the Xenian army, and it makes no sense for their weapons to deal "pitiful damage". There's a lot of ways that "thornets" could be damaging weapons, as has been pointed out. It's a video game. Also, if the aim is to make it more realistic (I'd play it with the HD pack, so at least the MP5 would be less of a problem), then why do the shotgun and pistol even work on the human soldiers at all?

 

1. There's not much I can do about the shotgun and 9mm hurting them, it's just a .cfg mod. They *are* extremely ineffective, for what that's worth.

2. The HD pack screws with the models without changing the hitboxes, so you can be shooting at what appears to be the chest and actually hitting the gut quite a bit, especially with vortigaunts. I also assumed the MP5 was an MP5 and a 9mm when I set its damage, so it'll take a full magazine to the chest to bring down a marine, but you'll mostly be using it, the crowbar and grenades to combat marines. (And the marines are tough enough that using satchel charges and trip mines on them doesn't feel like overkill and doesn't even always work the first time. I place mines in pairs to deal with them.)

3. Again, I highly recommend the one for Black Mesa instead of Half-Life. I could do so much more with Black Mesa, and the soldiers in particular respond more realistically to gunfire. The only thing I was missing was the ability to assign multipliers to weapon damage for the marines, and the ability to set shot placement multipliers for individual enemies. And if you must do Half-Life, use GoldSrc instead of Source for the same reason.

 

Actually, one of the reasons I made this topic was because I was bothered by Ross's comments in an old podcast five years ago- he said that he found it really unrealistic and immersion-breaking when he had to shoot the soldiers ten times to bring them down. He also said that even if someone is wearing body armor, he finds it really implausible if one shotgun blast doesn't take them down, even if they are wearing body armor. I actually heard him say something very recently about it; something like "While body armor can make 9mm rounds nonlethal, I don't know of many people who are going to be STANDING after being shot 3 times, let alone fully combat effective." I don't pretend to be a military expert, but even I know that the unrealistic part was that pistol bullets were bringing them down at all.

 

If he doesn't know what he's talking about, he doesn't know what he's talking about. And if he hasn't gotten the message after all this time, he's never going to and there's no point giving him shit about it. I'm just going to recite the MST3K mantra and keep enjoying the show.

 

I mean, a few MP5 shots would probably be enough to take them down (if not that quickly) if they were just wearing PASGT vests, but otherwise...

 

Funny, I assumed they were wearing interceptor body armour.

 

That, and I wanted to hear what other people thought about Freeman's durability in this series, and what the limits of his HEV suit were.

 

I personally put it as "Makes the IOTV look like the PASGT."

 

I'm not arguing that the game or series are realistic, just that some things might not be quite as implausible as they look.

 

I fail to see how that point was expressed in that statement.

[RandomGuy]

Well if the game says it's a 9mm, I'm going to assume it's a 9mm. I have no reason to disbelieve it, especially since I don't use the HD pack in Half-Life and there is no equivalent for Black Mesa.

 

That's your preference then. I on the other hand like to use the HD pack because it makes more sense and looks nicer (though I actually think the default pistol and shotgun look better with 1998 graphics), as well as a custom M4 skin for Black Mesa.

 

Yes, a manual says it. So does the timeline. But even assuming it was just a manual, SO WHAT? It's the only source on the matter, nothing contradicts it and it's a reasonable time for it to be occurring.

 

Wait, there's an official timeline? Where?

 

There's been inlaid plates for quite a while. They just added the chainmail and better plates in the Iraq war.

 

In the early 2000s, when the standard vest was still the PASGT? From what I've read, it was rare for PASGT-wearing troops to get the rifle-proof plates, as only a few thousand were made, and they only became standard with the introduction of the Interceptor body armor system in late 2003. Are the sources I read BS or what?

 

Yes, there's chainmail in body armour now. It's between the layers of kevlar, just under the trauma plates. It's meant to stop shrapnel and other minor edged weapons that would flat-out ignore any thickness of kevlar. It can't stop a serious edged weapon, if somebody had a big knife they could get through, but it works on shrapnel. And that's why it's there. There were serious concerns with IEDs in the Iraq war, the soldiers wanted something in their armour that could resist shrapnel and they got it. They also upgraded the inlaid plates about the same time.

 

Huh. That's pretty interesting. Wouldn't that make things worse if the chainmail gets shattered?

 

A few shots from a REAL rifle, sure. A 7.62x51mm would only be stopped 2-3 times. The 5.56 is just a really, really, REALLY crappy round for defeating hard armour.

 

And, technically, if you hit exactly the same place, you could get through on the second 7.62x51mm round or maybe the third or fourth 5.56x45mm round. But the odds of you hitting the exact same place are so slim as to barely be worth talking about. And the plating only covers the chest, keep in mind.

 

By the by, do you have any sources for the claim that standard body armor can take a ten or more 5.56 rifle shots before folding? Again, I don't disbelieve you, but that sounds pretty extreme and I'd like to know where I can learn more about it.

 

It covers pretty much the entire torso, right?

 

I still don't like the HK53 theory, but that's for in-game reasons. You can subscribe to it if you want, but I don't.

 

Normally I would agree, but Freeman's Mind already changes so much about the game mechanics (the HEV suit isn't powered by batteries, Freeman can't drink green crap to regenerate, Freeman can do pull-ups, he doesn't have a helmet, anything smaller than .50 BMG bounces off the suit with sniper rifles leaving welts and most guns doing nothing, etc.) that I'm more concerned with just trying to have it make sense itself. So, I assume that.

 

Then the guy who never handled a gun before is a ballistic wunderkind? That's silly as hell, but it still makes more sense than what we're seeing, I'll go with it.

 

He doesn't even use the sights!

 

Cool. If I pair that with the HK53 + lucky shots + overkill theory, then things actually start making a bit of sense. Not much, granted, as everyone still dies/gets incapacitated too quickly (except in cases where they're shot in the head or hit in the chest a LOT) rather than running on adrenaline and bleeding out, but still. It's as close as I'm gonna get, and it allows me to watch the series without a tiny annoyance eating away at me.

 

The guards should be able to take quite a bit of that, actually. Even at point blank, it'd only knock the wind out of them and maybe break a rib.

 

Yep. Though it depends on some things. Heh, maybe Freeman didn't kill that Barney after all, and he just got back up a minute after Freeman left, clenching his stomach and calling Gordon a prick.

 

It's bullshit. We all know it's bullshit. You're wasting your time justifying it, because we all know it makes the show go a lot faster and that's important. And if you want to keep pondering it, here's some fantastic advice from an ancient TV show on the matter.

 

I'm aware of that advice, but in some cases, I'd rather not take it. I mean, if I did that, then I wouldn't be on half the forums I'm on. I'd still be on this one, though.

 

You have NO idea. Oh, and you need to play on hard to get the best picture. Although I should let you know that Freeman's armour lets him tank hits like a champ and the early sections before the marines show up you're going to feel like superman. ("Oh, a headcrab. It did a single point of damage. My turn." *SPLAT*) Once the marines do show up, even though they're not nearly as tough as you the encounters with them will likely drain a huge chunk of your resources, armour charge and health.

 

Also, just realised I made a slight typo regarding Freeman's head and then repeated it over and over. Freeman's head was only taking half the damage it was supposed to be. I fixed it.

 

Sounds frustrating, yet satisfying to get through.

 

1. There's not much I can do about the shotgun and 9mm hurting them, it's just a .cfg mod. They *are* extremely ineffective, for what that's worth.

2. The HD pack screws with the models without changing the hitboxes, so you can be shooting at what appears to be the chest and actually hitting the gut quite a bit, especially with vortigaunts. I also assumed the MP5 was an MP5 and a 9mm when I set its damage, so it'll take a full magazine to the chest to bring down a marine, but you'll mostly be using it, the crowbar and grenades to combat marines. (And the marines are tough enough that using satchel charges and trip mines on them doesn't feel like overkill and doesn't even always work the first time. I place mines in pairs to deal with them.)

3. Again, I highly recommend the one for Black Mesa instead of Half-Life. I could do so much more with Black Mesa, and the soldiers in particular respond more realistically to gunfire. The only thing I was missing was the ability to assign multipliers to weapon damage for the marines, and the ability to set shot placement multipliers for individual enemies. And if you must do Half-Life, use GoldSrc instead of Source for the same reason.

 

1. That's good.

 

2. So, aside from using explosives, what's the best way to take out marines? Aim for the head? 'Cause going by the x3 damage multiplier, it'd still take 17 shots (!) in your mod to kill a soldier like that (as you said it would take the entire 50-round mag to kill one shooting him in the torso, though that doesn't seem to match the MP5 doing 10 damage, as marines have 50 health... or did you change that too?). Also, the magnum doing 40 damage vs the M249's 20 damage doesn't seem very realistic. Or was that solely for balance? And are the marines drastically buffed compared to the aliens, to the point where their scripted fights are ridiculously one-sided?

 

3. I'll try that, then. At least for a bit; it sounds like it's too hard to always have on.

 

If he doesn't know what he's talking about, he doesn't know what he's talking about. And if he hasn't gotten the message after all this time, he's never going to and there's no point giving him shit about it. I'm just going to recite the MST3K mantra and keep enjoying the show.

 

That's true.

 

Funny, I assumed they were wearing interceptor body armour.

 

Hence the if. I'm just going to use the above theories and assume they are wearing Interceptor body armor. But the PASGT was standard issue up to 2003, and was the Interceptor even a thing when Half-Life was made? If we go by Opposing Force, then the marines are using a fantasy power armor that can take autocannon fire but still fall to enough pistol bullets. Or maybe that's just a few specific guys (my theory right now, as it would explain why Shepherd's so much durable than a standard marine). Either way, it doesn't seem like FM follows that.

 

I personally put it as "Makes the IOTV look like the PASGT."

 

Sounds about right.

 

I fail to see how that point was expressed in that statement.

 

Basically, the statement was "yeah, and the pistol does more damage than the heavy machine gun, it's pretty silly". It wasn't my main point, it was just an offhand acknowledgement of the fact that the game wasn't realistic, and a sign that I wasn't arguing that it was. I just enjoy trying to speculate and fix 'holes' in any series I watch/play/read, even if I have to reach. I dunno, it's just fun to me.

 

Thanks for all the responses, by the way. Sorry if I'm boring you by now.

[Seattleite]

That's your preference then. I on the other hand like to use the HD pack because it makes more sense and looks nicer (though I actually think the default pistol and shotgun look better with 1998 graphics), as well as a custom M4 skin for Black Mesa.

 

I don't. I like the classic look of the original, and I don't like it when hitboxes and models don't match.

 

Wait, there's an official timeline? Where?

 

Less "Official Timeline" and more "Compilation of statements from Valve and in-game materials". But one can be found on every wiki. But all we really have is the date in the manual and Mark Laidlaw saying the manual's date was correct.

 

In the early 2000s, when the standard vest was still the PASGT? From what I've read, it was rare for PASGT-wearing troops to get the rifle-proof plates, as only a few thousand were made, and they only became standard with the introduction of the Interceptor body armor system in late 2003. Are the sources I read BS or what?

 

The sources you read are half-right. The inlaid plates in older PASGT armour were shit, but during the incidents in Somalia they started giving out better ones to the troops there and then they became standard.

 

Huh. That's pretty interesting. Wouldn't that make things worse if the chainmail gets shattered?

 

1. No, chainmail doesn't work that way and never has.

2. Even if it did work that way, there's still a layer of kevlar under it.

3. Even if the kevlar wasn't there, all chainmail armour ever worn was worn over padding and there's plenty of that here as well.

 

By the by, do you have any sources for the claim that standard body armor can take a ten or more 5.56 rifle shots before folding? Again, I don't disbelieve you, but that sounds pretty extreme and I'd like to know where I can learn more about it.

 

Any manufacturer of modern body armour will tell you how many hits it can take. I'm going off their statements, but here's a rifle test. With a total of 63 shots withstood from an M16 at 100 metres.

 

abd9bpvd6zY

 

The 5.56 doesn't do a damned thing against hard armour and never will.

 

It covers pretty much the entire torso, right?

 

Not really. Depends on whether it's OTV or IOTV how much, but it's not all.

 

I still don't like the HK53 theory, but that's for in-game reasons. You can subscribe to it if you want, but I don't.

 

Normally I would agree, but Freeman's Mind already changes so much about the game mechanics (the HEV suit isn't powered by batteries, Freeman can't drink green crap to regenerate, Freeman can do pull-ups, he doesn't have a helmet, anything smaller than .50 BMG bounces off the suit with sniper rifles leaving welts and most guns doing nothing, etc.) that I'm more concerned with just trying to have it make sense itself. So, I assume that.

 

Most part, no objections. But I don't think that green stuff is meant to be drank. I think it's applied to wounds directly, as a salve.

 

He doesn't even use the sights!

 

Cool. If I pair that with the HK53 + lucky shots + overkill theory, then things actually start making a bit of sense. Not much, granted, as everyone still dies/gets incapacitated too quickly (except in cases where they're shot in the head or hit in the chest a LOT) rather than running on adrenaline and bleeding out, but still. It's as close as I'm gonna get, and it allows me to watch the series without a tiny annoyance eating away at me.

 

Well, a gunshot wound to the head still isn't a one-shot instant out. In fact, its worldwide average survival rate is at 10%, with no adjustment for the size or number of wounds, quality or speed of medical attention or any other factors. (If you had a single small wound, fast and quality medical attention or other positive factors it'd likely be WAY higher. If you had multiple large wounds, no medical attention or other negative negative factors, it'd likely be WAY lower. This is just an average.) For the chest, I believe the average survival rate was 33%. (Same deal.) For the abdomen the average survival rate was, IIRC, 80% around the world and 95% in developed countries. (I can only imagine it's infection that makes the death rate outside of developed countries so high.)

 

Yep. Though it depends on some things. Heh, maybe Freeman didn't kill that Barney after all, and he just got back up a minute after Freeman left, clenching his stomach and calling Gordon a prick.

 

"OW, FUCK! Okay Barney, stay down and he won't shoot you again. Maybe he won't shoot you again. He won't shoot you again. He's gone. Okay, time to find a way out before he comes back. Fucking sociopath."

 

I'm aware of that advice, but in some cases, I'd rather not take it. I mean, if I did that, then I wouldn't be on half the forums I'm on. I'd still be on this one, though.

 

I don't follow it as well as I should. I do just try to make sure others know it's bullshit and don't make a big deal out of it.

 

Sounds frustrating, yet satisfying to get through.

 

It is. And of course it's a lot harder in the Black Mesa version, but I love it even more. (The hardest one is the Blue Shift one, though. Dear god, the trainyard fight is brutal. Take cover! Protect your arms and legs, they're not armoured!)

 

1. That's good.

 

2. So, aside from using explosives, what's the best way to take out marines? Aim for the head? 'Cause going by the x3 damage multiplier, it'd still take 17 shots (!) in your mod to kill a soldier like that (as you said it would take the entire 50-round mag to kill one shooting him in the torso, though that doesn't seem to match the MP5 doing 10 damage, as marines have 50 health... or did you change that too?). Also, the magnum doing 40 damage vs the M249's 20 damage doesn't seem very realistic. Or was that solely for balance? And are the marines drastically buffed compared to the aliens, to the point where their scripted fights are ridiculously one-sided?

 

3. I'll try that, then. At least for a bit; it sounds like it's too hard to always have on.

 

2.

A. Explosives are fine, but limited and seldom do it in one unless you're using the overpowered-like-mad rocket launcher. The crowbar works wonders if you can get in range, use the environment to get in close when you can. The .357 takes a lot to do them in but with precise headshots it does pretty good damage and even the marine grunt (or any marine outside of Black Mesa) will drop in exactly one mag if you score nothing but headshots. The energy weapons are beastly but they run out of ammo quick so I only use them when desperate, and the crossbow is only good against aliens to be honest and is kinda iffy against the marines. I usually use the MP5, crowbar when really close, .357 at range and Glock if that runs out, explosives as needed. And I burn a LOT of ammunition fighting these bastards, but I get through alive and that can be a struggle since these fights lost long enough to get shot many dozens of times.

B. Depends on which you're in, and in none are the multipliers the same as before. In Half-Life (and Blue Shift, and Opposing Force) they all have 150 health. However, in Black Mesa they range from 75-150. Commanders (friggin' morons didn't even bring their helmets) have 75, medics (only partial helmets, still morons) have 100, grenadiers have 125 and grunts have 150. The 9mm does 5 damage, so with the present multipliers that means that depending on difficulty grunts take 10-15 to the head, 20-30 to the chest, 40-60 to the abdomen, 54-80 to the legs or 80-120 to the arms. Keep in mind your accuracy is seldom 100%.

C. The fights are pretty one-sided, yes, but not always in their favour. There are a few they lose pretty hard. The gargantua fights are one-sided in the gargantua's favour, the grunt fights in Black Mesa (DAMN the grunts kick ass in Black Mesa, even in this mod) usually are losses for the marines, and even vortigaunts can (and do) take down marines if they can survive long enough to make a few direct hits. (2-3, varies heavily in Black Mesa but is usually more since the shots there are faster and weaker.)

D. That thread was horribly out of date. I just fixed the numbers to match the present version of the mod, I had to do a lot of changes to avoid issues with the Source engine and knockback. The .357 presently does 14. The 5.56 rounds of the sentry turrets and M249 do 15. The .50 bullets of the M2 browning do 260, and in Black Mesa the LAV-25's 25mm does 400. (So you know, Gordon takes 26-52 from the .50 and 40-80 from the 25mm, and both instantly kill Gordon if they hit him in the head regardless of health and difficulty.)

 

Hence the if. I'm just going to use the above theories and assume they are wearing Interceptor body armor. But the PASGT was standard issue up to 2003, and was the Interceptor even a thing when Half-Life was made? If we go by Opposing Force, then the marines are using a fantasy power armor that can take autocannon fire but still fall to enough pistol bullets. Or maybe that's just a few specific guys (my theory right now, as it would explain why Shepherd's so much durable than a standard marine). Either way, it doesn't seem like FM follows that.

 

No idea, but I can tell you that most marines in Half-Life are NOT wearing the same armour as Shepherd, even in Opposing Force. I can only assume Shepherd is part of an elite unit.

 

Thanks for all the responses, by the way. Sorry if I'm boring you by now.

 

I'm still tuned in. I am a bit tired and need to go get myself some caffeine (SWEET, GLORIOUS CAFFEINE!) but you're not boring me so don't worry about that.

[RandomGuy]

I don't. I like the classic look of the original, and I don't like it when hitboxes and models don't match.

 

Well, to each their own.

 

Less "Official Timeline" and more "Compilation of statements from Valve and in-game materials". But one can be found on every wiki. But all we really have is the date in the manual and Mark Laidlaw saying the manual's date was correct.

 

Laidlaw said that? Where?

 

The sources you read are half-right. The inlaid plates in older PASGT armour were shit, but during the incidents in Somalia they started giving out better ones to the troops there and then they became standard.

 

From what I read, the ISAPO plate inserts were only produced in limited numbers (4,000 specifically) in preparation for the switch to Interceptor armor.

 

Any manufacturer of modern body armour will tell you how many hits it can take. I'm going off their statements, but here's a rifle test. With a total of 63 shots withstood from an M16 at 100 metres.

 

And that's only supposed to be level III? It's pretty shocking that, going by this video, the average American soldier would be almost completely immune to the standard issue rifle in the US military (unless they take significant damage from kinetic energy transfer?). Anyway, didn't you say it could take "only" about a dozen earlier?

 

Do you have any examples of a manufacturer saying "our armor is guaranteed to stop X amount of 5.56 bullets"?

 

Not really. Depends on whether it's OTV or IOTV how much, but it's not all.

 

So, a soldier could still get wounded by gunshots to the torso even if the armor holds? Where specifically is he unarmored besides the sides?

 

Most part, no objections. But I don't think that green stuff is meant to be drank. I think it's applied to wounds directly, as a salve.

 

In the PS2 version, the scientists and medical machines seem to be directly injecting it into Freeman's bloodstream with needles.

 

Well, a gunshot wound to the head still isn't a one-shot instant out. In fact, its worldwide average survival rate is at 10%, with no adjustment for the size or number of wounds, quality or speed of medical attention or any other factors. (If you had a single small wound, fast and quality medical attention or other positive factors it'd likely be WAY higher. If you had multiple large wounds, no medical attention or other negative negative factors, it'd likely be WAY lower. This is just an average.) For the chest, I believe the average survival rate was 33%. (Same deal.) For the abdomen the average survival rate was, IIRC, 80% around the world and 95% in developed countries. (I can only imagine it's infection that makes the death rate outside of developed countries so high.)

 

Oh, I'm aware of that. But the chances of surviving, to say nothing of continuing to fight, after getting shot in the head, especially with a rifle, are quite low. I remember reading a world record about a man who lived many years with a bullet lodged in his skull.

 

"OW, FUCK! Okay Barney, stay down and he won't shoot you again. Maybe he won't shoot you again. He won't shoot you again. He's gone. Okay, time to find a way out before he comes back. Fucking sociopath."

 

Sounds about right.

 

2.

A. Explosives are fine, but limited and seldom do it in one unless you're using the overpowered-like-mad rocket launcher. The crowbar works wonders if you can get in range, use the environment to get in close when you can. The .357 takes a lot to do them in but with precise headshots it does pretty good damage and even the marine grunt (or any marine outside of Black Mesa) will drop in exactly one mag if you score nothing but headshots. The energy weapons are beastly but they run out of ammo quick so I only use them when desperate, and the crossbow is only good against aliens to be honest and is kinda iffy against the marines. I usually use the MP5, crowbar when really close, .357 at range and Glock if that runs out, explosives as needed. And I burn a LOT of ammunition fighting these bastards, but I get through alive and that can be a struggle since these fights lost long enough to get shot many dozens of times.

B. Depends on which you're in, and in none are the multipliers the same as before. In Half-Life (and Blue Shift, and Opposing Force) they all have 150 health. However, in Black Mesa they range from 75-150. Commanders (friggin' morons didn't even bring their helmets) have 75, medics (only partial helmets, still morons) have 100, grenadiers have 125 and grunts have 150. The 9mm does 5 damage, so with the present multipliers that means that depending on difficulty grunts take 10-15 to the head, 20-30 to the chest, 40-60 to the abdomen, 54-80 to the legs or 80-120 to the arms. Keep in mind your accuracy is seldom 100%.

C. The fights are pretty one-sided, yes, but not always in their favour. There are a few they lose pretty hard. The gargantua fights are one-sided in the gargantua's favour, the grunt fights in Black Mesa (DAMN the grunts kick ass in Black Mesa, even in this mod) usually are losses for the marines, and even vortigaunts can (and do) take down marines if they can survive long enough to make a few direct hits. (2-3, varies heavily in Black Mesa but is usually more since the shots there are faster and weaker.)

D. That thread was horribly out of date. I just fixed the numbers to match the present version of the mod, I had to do a lot of changes to avoid issues with the Source engine and knockback. The .357 presently does 14. The 5.56 rounds of the sentry turrets and M249 do 15. The .50 bullets of the M2 browning do 260, and in Black Mesa the LAV-25's 25mm does 400. (So you know, Gordon takes 26-52 from the .50 and 40-80 from the 25mm, and both instantly kill Gordon if they hit him in the head regardless of health and difficulty.)

 

B. Does the Commanders not wearing helmets really justify them getting HALF as much health as a grunt? Also, those damage values are for Hard difficulty, right?

 

C. Obviously living tanks stomp foot soldiers, but what about other alien infantry in base Half-Life? Like I said, I don't agree with the Grunts doing so little damage. It seems to devalue them and basically miss the point of their existence. It sounds like the Vortigaunts are better fighters in this mod, since they do so how much damage and fire really quickly on Hard mode.

 

D. So 10 rifle bullets to take down a standard grunt with just torso shots? Seems about right. I think the .357 is too powerful, but that's kind of necessary just for game balance, or else it would just be worthless. In base Black Mesa, don't the autocannons that the LAV-25s tote do like 5 damage? The HL2 Pulse Rifle should also do more damage.

 

Off-topic, but I loved how Black Mesa depicted the M2 Browning. Usually in video games, including base Half-Life, this weapon would be given similar damage to the rifle or even pistol for game balance. Not here. It may not take everything out in one hit ("realistically" it would one-shot any infantry in the game, including Gordon), but it comes pretty close, and it doesn't really matter due to how fast it is. It friggin GIBS enemies, like it does in real life. That hold the line sequence at the end of Power-Up made it feel like you were John Rambo. I haven't seen many games that give this weapon the power it deserves.

 

No idea, but I can tell you that most marines in Half-Life are NOT wearing the same armour as Shepherd, even in Opposing Force. I can only assume Shepherd is part of an elite unit.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the same in-game model. That's my theory, though.

 

I'm still tuned in. I am a bit tired and need to go get myself some caffeine (SWEET, GLORIOUS CAFFEINE!) but you're not boring me so don't worry about that.

 

Good to hear.

[Seattleite]

Laidlaw said that? Where?[/auote]

 

http://www.valvetime.net/threads/marc-laidlaw-vault.114535/page-6#post-3141727

 

And that's only supposed to be level III? It's pretty shocking that, going by this video, the average American soldier would be almost completely immune to the standard issue rifle in the US military (unless they take significant damage from kinetic energy transfer?). Anyway, didn't you say it could take "only" about a dozen earlier?

 

Ain't it amazing? But keep in mind that's an NIJ-III standalone plate and is actually tougher than the plates in our soldier's IOTV vests. IOTV vests are NIJ-IV as a whole, and it's an easier mark to hit. I know that sounds weird. But see, a trauma plate is SO much more effective when part of a heavily padded, double-layered, chainmail-reinforced kevlar protective vest, as the padding, chainmail and kevlar all help cushion the impact and reduce damage to the plate, that a fairly unimpressive plate (that as a standalone would likely only be NIJ-II) can bring the system (that without it is NIJ-IIIA) all the way up to NIJ-IV.

 

Keep in mind the "12 hits" claim was vague on the calibre the plates were meant to stop, and was at point blank instead of 100 metres. This was a 100-metre test. A rifle at 100 metres is a lot weaker than a rifle at 10 metres, much less 1 metre. In CQB that plate would have broken to fewer shots, due to a combination of greater hitting power, faster fire rate and tighter grouping.

 

Do you have any examples of a manufacturer saying "our armor is guaranteed to stop X amount of 5.56 bullets"?

 

http://firstdefense.com/html/Hard_Armor.htm

 

According to them, their model AA4 level-IV standalone plates will stop a 7.62x54 or a 12 guage slug just fine at point blank, and hold up to twelve shots from some vague attack at point blank.

 

So, a soldier could still get wounded by gunshots to the torso even if the armor holds? Where specifically is he unarmored besides the sides?

 

Yeah, in the abdomen. The IOTV trauma plate reaches down lower and (I believe) covers the liver, stomach and spleen and nothing below. The OTV doesn't reach as low and only covers the chest. So abdominal wounds only have to contend with kevlar and very thin chainmail, which would stop a pistol but is no issue for a rifle.

 

In the PS2 version, the scientists and medical machines seem to be directly injecting it into Freeman's bloodstream with needles.

 

Which also makes more sense than drinking it.

 

Oh, I'm aware of that. But the chances of surviving, to say nothing of continuing to fight, after getting shot in the head, especially with a rifle, are quite low. I remember reading a world record about a man who lived many years with a bullet lodged in his skull.

 

So you know, the record is only remarkable because the bullet stayed in. Many people have taken headwounds from rifles and kept going. Good examples being Wenseslao Moguel and Simo Hayha. Wenseslao was shot by a firing squad eight times in the chest and twice in the head, then sought medical attention under his own power. Simo Hayha was shot in the head with an enormous expanding rifle round that took off a huge chunk of his brain, then shot back and killed his attacker before passing out. Both men survived.

 

For a non-rifle example, there's tiny little Alexis Goggins. A seven-year old shot six times with a pistol at point blank, including four head wounds although only two hit her brain, survived and was still conscious and moving when the police finally removed her from the vehicle. Her mother was also shot in the head during this incident, and managed to overpower her attacker and flee the vehicle.

 

B. Does the Commanders not wearing helmets really justify them getting HALF as much health as a grunt? Also, those damage values are for Hard difficulty, right?

 

Yes, that's for hard, it'll take fewer shots on lower difficulties. And yes, not having a helmet makes a huge difference, especially since I can't just change the headshot multiplier for them like I'd rather do and have to compromise between them dying in a silly low number of chest shots or taking way too many bullets to the head. But there's more than that, of course. Although I think my disdain for military officers might have had an impact.

 

C. Obviously living tanks stomp foot soldiers, but what about other alien infantry in base Half-Life? Like I said, I don't agree with the Grunts doing so little damage. It seems to devalue them and basically miss the point of their existence. It sounds like the Vortigaunts are better fighters in this mod, since they do so how much damage and fire really quickly on Hard mode.

 

You seem to have missed how unbelievably brutal the grunts are in melee combat, since the damage wasn't listed. And the fact that they tank an almost silly number of bullets and it frequently feels like you're, to use Freeman's words, fighting a dump truck. They only have 40 hit points in Black Mesa, but since they take basically no damage anywhere they have armour, take half damage from the front already, take half damage from the 9mm and quarter damage from buckshot, I have seen one literally take over a hundred bullets to kill. They're also surprisingly fast and hit like a freight train. The grunt encounters here are brutal and you definitely do not feel like you have them under control at any point, unlike the vortigaunt fights.

 

They're not as good in Half-Life as in Black Mesa, but they're more common and aren't supposed to be as impressive there. In Half-Life, they have 80 hit points and take no damage anywhere they have armour. This, combined with their armour covering their entire chest and almost their entire head, can make them either more or less durable than marines depending on how you handle them, but they're common, hit hard in melee and make damned fine damage sponges to protect the vortigaunts and let them get off multiple high-power lightning blasts.

 

D. So 10 rifle bullets to take down a standard grunt with just torso shots? Seems about right. I think the .357 is too powerful, but that's kind of necessary just for game balance, or else it would just be worthless. In base Black Mesa, don't the autocannons that the LAV-25s tote do like 5 damage? The HL2 Pulse Rifle should also do more damage.

 

1. Keep in mind that "chest" and "abdomen" are totally different here. I was given the option to make them different and they are. You do half damage to the abdomen against all opponents. It shouldn't be like that for marines, but I can't change them separately.

 

2. I think it was more than 5, but it was indeed shit. But right now it's ungodly powerful and makes the LAV more dangerous to the player than the Abrams you fought to get to it. (Although, obviously, the Abrams takes way more hits to kill, the environment and its choice of weapon work against it.)

 

3. I chose 10 for the AR2. It's higher than vanilla, for starters, in proportion to the pistol and SMG. (The 5 and 4 values are the same as in vanilla, but coincidentally so, and the AR2 did 8 in vanilla. Making it 10 is making it better than in vanilla.) That already makes it better than vanilla by 25%, and there's no other source to work with. The AR2 also has an advantage later on in being more effective against hunters than any of your other "standard" weapons. Even in HL2 itself, once you get the AR2 it is by far your best weapon as only it and the SMG-1 can down an overwatch trooper in one magazine without requiring headshots. (Excluding the rocket launcher, of course.) And compared to the SMG-1 it does the job much faster and can do it twice in a single magazine instead of only once, and can do it to the stronger overwatch elite when the SMG cannot. I've already made the AR2 by far the best weapon in the game. I don't need to do it by any more.

 

Off-topic, but I loved how Black Mesa depicted the M2 Browning. Usually in video games, including base Half-Life, this weapon would be given similar damage to the rifle or even pistol for game balance. Not here. It may not take everything out in one hit ("realistically" it would one-shot any infantry in the game, including Gordon), but it comes pretty close, and it doesn't really matter due to how fast it is. It friggin GIBS enemies, like it does in real life. That hold the line sequence at the end of Power-Up made it feel like you were John Rambo. I haven't seen many games that give this weapon the power it deserves.

 

The .50 doesn't actually gib people in real life. At best it might take somebody's arm off. It's not a cannon, and I wish people would stop treating it like it is. And Gordon's armour being able to stop it isn't that far fetched either, because once again it's not a cannon. And human soldiers taking a bullet from it and surviving also isn't that far fetched, because it's once more not a cannon.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the same in-game model. That's my theory, though.

 

Do I need picture links to prove otherwise? Adrian's armour isn't the same design.

[RandomGuy]

Thanks for the link. So HL1 took place in 2000-2009, while HL2 took place in 2020-2029.

 

 

Ain't it amazing? But keep in mind that's an NIJ-III standalone plate and is actually tougher than the plates in our soldier's IOTV vests. IOTV vests are NIJ-IV as a whole, and it's an easier mark to hit. I know that sounds weird. But see, a trauma plate is SO much more effective when part of a heavily padded, double-layered, chainmail-reinforced kevlar protective vest, as the padding, chainmail and kevlar all help cushion the impact and reduce damage to the plate, that a fairly unimpressive plate (that as a standalone would likely only be NIJ-II) can bring the system (that without it is NIJ-IIIA) all the way up to NIJ-IV.

 

Keep in mind the "12 hits" claim was vague on the calibre the plates were meant to stop, and was at point blank instead of 100 metres. This was a 100-metre test. A rifle at 100 metres is a lot weaker than a rifle at 10 metres, much less 1 metre. In CQB that plate would have broken to fewer shots, due to a combination of greater hitting power, faster fire rate and tighter grouping.

 

Okay, that makes more sense. Still, that's durable as hell. I wonder why all the self-proclaimed super-realistic video games still have everyone fold in only a few shots. Surely, if having a soldier take ten rifle shots to the chest before going down (as is usually the case in more "unrealistic" games) and be almost completely immune to pistols, SMGs, and shotguns (which no game that I know of does) was way more realistic, at least one "simulation" style game by now would have done it?

 

So, what would your estimate be for how much shots an American soldier could take wearing armor standard in the early to mid 2000s from a 5.56 rifle, at the very short ranges Half-Life's combat typically take place at? Not just from the armor breaking, but also from the kinetic energy?

 

http://firstdefense.com/html/Hard_Armor.htm

 

According to them, their model AA4 level-IV standalone plates will stop a 7.62x54 or a 12 guage slug just fine at point blank, and hold up to twelve shots from some vague attack at point blank.

 

That would be level-4 with the rest of the armor system, right?

Yeah, in the abdomen. The IOTV trauma plate reaches down lower and (I believe) covers the liver, stomach and spleen and nothing below. The OTV doesn't reach as low and only covers the chest. So abdominal wounds only have to contend with kevlar and very thin chainmail, which would stop a pistol but is no issue for a rifle.

 

Huh. Any particular reason the armor didn't cover half of the torso prior to the IOTV? Budget issues?

 

 

So you know, the record is only remarkable because the bullet stayed in. Many people have taken headwounds from rifles and kept going. Good examples being Wenseslao Moguel and Simo Hayha. Wenseslao was shot by a firing squad eight times in the chest and twice in the head, then sought medical attention under his own power. Simo Hayha was shot in the head with an enormous expanding rifle round that took off a huge chunk of his brain, then shot back and killed his attacker before passing out. Both men survived.

 

For a non-rifle example, there's tiny little Alexis Goggins. A seven-year old shot six times with a pistol at point blank, including four head wounds although only two hit her brain, survived and was still conscious and moving when the police finally removed her from the vehicle. Her mother was also shot in the head during this incident, and managed to overpower her attacker and flee the vehicle.

 

I was aware of the Simo Hayha story. Not the other ones, though. As I said, I know it's possible to survive getting shot in the head, and even still function after, I just said that the odds of it happening were low.

 

Yes, that's for hard, it'll take fewer shots on lower difficulties. And yes, not having a helmet makes a huge difference, especially since I can't just change the headshot multiplier for them like I'd rather do and have to compromise between them dying in a silly low number of chest shots or taking way too many bullets to the head. But there's more than that, of course. Although I think my disdain for military officers might have had an impact.

 

Hah, I guess that explains it. Do you hate medics, too? I don't think them only wearing a partial helm would justify giving them 50% less health either...

 

Would you mind posting the health values for the enemies somewhere?

 

 

You seem to have missed how unbelievably brutal the grunts are in melee combat, since the damage wasn't listed. And the fact that they tank an almost silly number of bullets and it frequently feels like you're, to use Freeman's words, fighting a dump truck. They only have 40 hit points in Black Mesa, but since they take basically no damage anywhere they have armour, take half damage from the front already, take half damage from the 9mm and quarter damage from buckshot, I have seen one literally take over a hundred bullets to kill. They're also surprisingly fast and hit like a freight train. The grunt encounters here are brutal and you definitely do not feel like you have them under control at any point, unlike the vortigaunt fights.

 

They're not as good in Half-Life as in Black Mesa, but they're more common and aren't supposed to be as impressive there. In Half-Life, they have 80 hit points and take no damage anywhere they have armour. This, combined with their armour covering their entire chest and almost their entire head, can make them either more or less durable than marines depending on how you handle them, but they're common, hit hard in melee and make damned fine damage sponges to protect the vortigaunts and let them get off multiple high-power lightning blasts.

 

Eh... while that enhances the difficulty, having them take a hundred bullets to kill yet do pitiful damage seems like it would be more boring and repetitive than challenging.

 

Yeah, I agree that the Black Mesa Alien Grunts are beasts. Yet every enemy was buffed in that game. Especially the marines and houndeyes.

 

1. Keep in mind that "chest" and "abdomen" are totally different here. I was given the option to make them different and they are. You do half damage to the abdomen against all opponents. It shouldn't be like that for marines, but I can't change them separately.

 

2. I think it was more than 5, but it was indeed shit. But right now it's ungodly powerful and makes the LAV more dangerous to the player than the Abrams you fought to get to it. (Although, obviously, the Abrams takes way more hits to kill, the environment and its choice of weapon work against it.)

 

3. I chose 10 for the AR2. It's higher than vanilla, for starters, in proportion to the pistol and SMG. (The 5 and 4 values are the same as in vanilla, but coincidentally so, and the AR2 did 8 in vanilla. Making it 10 is making it better than in vanilla.) That already makes it better than vanilla by 25%, and there's no other source to work with. The AR2 also has an advantage later on in being more effective against hunters than any of your other "standard" weapons. Even in HL2 itself, once you get the AR2 it is by far your best weapon as only it and the SMG-1 can down an overwatch trooper in one magazine without requiring headshots. (Excluding the rocket launcher, of course.) And compared to the SMG-1 it does the job much faster and can do it twice in a single magazine instead of only once, and can do it to the stronger overwatch elite when the SMG cannot. I've already made the AR2 by far the best weapon in the game. I don't need to do it by any more.

 

1. Oh, okay.

 

2. How many rocket launcher hits does the LAV-25 take anyway? It should go down pretty quickly to an anti-tank weapon.

 

3. I think I misunderstood the HL2 damage values. How much health are the Overwatch troopers supposed to have?

 

The .50 doesn't actually gib people in real life. At best it might take somebody's arm off. It's not a cannon, and I wish people would stop treating it like it is. And Gordon's armour being able to stop it isn't that far fetched either, because once again it's not a cannon. And human soldiers taking a bullet from it and surviving also isn't that far fetched, because it's once more not a cannon.

 

I think I should have been clearer... by "gib", I don't mean literally make explode into a thousand pieces, I mean more like ripping off body parts and taking out huge chunks of the body, which as far as I know that weapon can do.

 

You think it's plausible that Freeman's HEV suit could let him survive it?

 

Do I need picture links to prove otherwise? Adrian's armour isn't the same design.

 

They looked pretty similar to me, aside from one having pouches on it, but I'll take your word for it.

[Seattleite]

Okay, that makes more sense. Still, that's durable as hell. I wonder why all the self-proclaimed super-realistic video games still have everyone fold in only a few shots. Surely, if having a soldier take ten rifle shots to the chest before going down (as is usually the case in more "unrealistic" games) and be almost completely immune to pistols, SMGs, and shotguns (which no game that I know of does) was way more realistic, at least one "simulation" style game by now would have done it?

 

If game designers had ANY clue what the word "realistic" meant, they would. But they don't.

 

So, what would your estimate be for how much shots an American soldier could take wearing armor standard in the early to mid 2000s from a 5.56 rifle, at the very short ranges Half-Life's combat typically take place at? Not just from the armor breaking, but also from the kinetic energy?

 

The energy is meaningless. Even rifle rounds don't do shit through body armour if they don't penetrate it. I don't know if you know, but body armour is and always has been padded, and bullets don't have much momentum. The rifles would have to penetrate to do more than bruise. And really, the answer to this question comes down to "how long before a couple rounds go through the abdomen" or else "how long until the plate breaks". There's no answer to the former, for the latter I'll go with the manufacturer-guaranteed twelve shots and add 50%. I'll go ahead and say 18.

 

That would be level-4 with the rest of the armor system, right?

 

No, that plate is a level-IV standalone. As in, without the rest of the armour. It's for when a full vest is too bulky.

 

Huh. Any particular reason the armor didn't cover half of the torso prior to the IOTV? Budget issues?

 

I don't think so. Budget may be a factor, but I think the simple fact that keeping our troops from at all bending their torso even the tiniest little bit while also increasing the weight of their armour would be a recipe for disaster and might be the reason they choose not to do that. And even the IOTV only reaches down a bit lower to cover some vital upper-abdominal organs.

 

I was aware of the Simo Hayha story. Not the other ones, though. As I said, I know it's possible to survive getting shot in the head, and even still function after, I just said that the odds of it happening were low.

 

No, you said that it would be immediately incapacitating. I said it was not. Although it CAN blind you for a bit, like any hit to the head is prone to do. These stories weren't just survival stories, they were stories of people continuing to function with gunshot wounds to the head. A man shot all to hell by a firing squad (with full-power rifles at that) playing dead, waiting for them to leave and then getting up (with his fucking arms bound together!) and walking off to find a doctor, with all those bullet wounds, means he's still pretty functional. So is losing a solid third of your brain and then staying conscious long enough to fatally wound a man at long range with your rifle (which takes a lot of precision) also means he's functional. A small child being shot all over with hollow-point pistol rounds, including two through the brain and one damaging her thalamus (the "YOU ARE FUCKING DEAD NOW" part of the brain) and still crying when the cops find her also means she's functional, as does her mother overpowering the shooter after being shot in the head and running out of the car screaming for help. These people were all shot in the head, some of these being multiple headwounds or extraodinarily large headwounds, and kept on going anyway. And even in the cases where the victim dies, it's not that strange for them to keep going anyway for a while.

 

Hah, I guess that explains it. Do you hate medics, too? I don't think them only wearing a partial helm would justify giving them 50% less health either...

 

1. 100 is not 50% less than 150.

2. Medics usually wear lighter armour as they're NOT meant as direct combat troops. Many medics in Iraq, for instance, kept wearing PASGT armour well after it was phased out for actual combat troops. I think they inherited the OTV vests when the combat troops switched to IOTV in 2007, but I could be wrong. I assumed the grunts and marines were wearing OTV, while the medics (both of which are support troops) were still wearing PASGT and the officers were lazy enough to either remove parts of their armour or keep their older PASGT armour to save on weight. (NOT that far fetched. I knew a guy whose officer would stay in the vehicle and have the enlisted men do everything so he never had to walk anywhere, and still complained about how heavy his gear was. Managers are just fucking pricks the world over, aren't they?)

 

Would you mind posting the health values for the enemies somewhere?

 

Well, there's a lot of them, but sure. I'll go post those in the other thread.

 

Eh... while that enhances the difficulty, having them take a hundred bullets to kill yet do pitiful damage seems like it would be more boring and repetitive than challenging.

 

Yeah, I agree that the Black Mesa Alien Grunts are beasts. Yet every enemy was buffed in that game. Especially the marines and houndeyes.

 

Are you STILL ignoring their extremely high melee damage? Or the fact that (outside of Black Mesa) they come grouped with hard-hitting vortigaunts like, ALL the time? They are quite challenging, even to the very heavily armoured Gordon Freeman, and scuffles with them are best handled from a distance, vortigaunts killed first, otherwise you will lose a LOT of health and armour and likely all of your allies if you have any at that point.

 

Also, if you thought the grunts were beastly before, you should see how they perform now. I think the wake-up call is when you've gotten pretty used to the idea that HECU=BADASS and then see two marines get killed by a pair of grunts right after they wake up. See, combining very high melee damage with good speed and near-invulnerability to bullets from the front makes them extremely dangerous. I usually find circle-strafing to hit them in the back, preferably with a weapon they don't resist (energy weapons, crossbow, .357 or the crowbar) is the best way to deal with them because otherwise you're stuck fighting an enemy head-on that can totally tank full magazines of fire and hits like a runaway truck.

 

1. Oh, okay.

 

2. How many rocket launcher hits does the LAV-25 take anyway? It should go down pretty quickly to an anti-tank weapon.

 

3. I think I misunderstood the HL2 damage values. How much health are the Overwatch troopers supposed to have?

 

2. Depends on difficulty and hit location. I only play on hard and usually use 2-3 shots. Whereas with the tank I'd show up with full ammo and have to scavenge for more rockets just to take it out because the rocket launcher (otherwise overpowered as hell) can easily take over half a dozen hits on hard and keep on going.

 

3. 150, same as the HECU marines. The Overwatch elites have 200, same as the Opposing Force marine allies.

 

I think I should have been clearer... by "gib", I don't mean literally make explode into a thousand pieces, I mean more like ripping off body parts and taking out huge chunks of the body, which as far as I know that weapon can do.

 

You think it's plausible that Freeman's HEV suit could let him survive it?

 

Why not? I assumed his armour to be much better than the IOTV, and the IOTV will stop it a grand total of once. (Although the soldier will still have at least one broken rib and a deflated lung, not necessarily a fatal injury but enough to take him off active duty for quite a while and it could be fatal under the right circumstances due to internal bleeding and breathing issues.) The .50 isn't a cannon, and it only has about the penetrative ability of an armour-piercing rifle round. It's a lot bigger and hits a lot harder, so hard armour has a much bigger problem with it, but it can still be stopped at least once by an NIJ-IV vest. I assumed Gordon's armour had somewhat better protective abilities and could take multiple hits due to its nature as electro-reactive armour.

 

In-game the .50 takes four chest shots to kill Gordon on hard if he has full health and armour charge, two if at full health and no armour charge. For comparison, the 25mm takes three in the former case and two in the latter. A 9mm bullet takes 200 in the former and 100 in the latter. Both guns do SO much damage they absolutely will instantly kill Gordon if they hit him on hard, compared to the 9mm only doing 20 damage on a headshot. (If you must know, the damage comes to 1040 for the .50 if it hits Gordon in the head, and 1600 for the 25mm. But then, most powerful attacks would instantly kill Gordon if they hit him in the head, and other than these two most powerful enough aren't locational.)

[BTGBullseye]

And what about the alien hornets, and the hornet gun?

[Seattleite]

And what about the alien hornets, and the hornet gun?

 

I've said everything I'm going to say about it.

[RandomGuy]

If game designers had ANY clue what the word "realistic" meant, they would. But they don't.

 

But not even one game design team has ever had a competent consultant who could let them in on something like this?

 

The energy is meaningless. Even rifle rounds don't do shit through body armour if they don't penetrate it. I don't know if you know, but body armour is and always has been padded, and bullets don't have much momentum. The rifles would have to penetrate to do more than bruise. And really, the answer to this question comes down to "how long before a couple rounds go through the abdomen" or else "how long until the plate breaks". There's no answer to the former, for the latter I'll go with the manufacturer-guaranteed twelve shots and add 50%. I'll go ahead and say 18.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Also: abdomen shots. ANOTHER way I can mentally make myself somewhat comfortable with Freeman killing armored American soldiers.

 

I don't think so. Budget may be a factor, but I think the simple fact that keeping our troops from at all bending their torso even the tiniest little bit while also increasing the weight of their armour would be a recipe for disaster and might be the reason they choose not to do that. And even the IOTV only reaches down a bit lower to cover some vital upper-abdominal organs.

 

That makes sense.

 

No, you said that it would be immediately incapacitating. I said it was not.

 

What I said:

 

"Oh, I'm aware of that. But the chances of surviving, to say nothing of continuing to fight, after getting shot in the head, especially with a rifle, are quite low."

"Cool. If I pair that with the HK53 + lucky shots + overkill theory, then things actually start making a bit of sense. Not much, granted, as everyone still dies/gets incapacitated too quickly (except in cases where they're shot in the head or hit in the chest a LOT) rather than running on adrenaline and bleeding out, but still. "

 

I never said that a head shot would always incapacitate anyone, just that it most likely would, especially if someone got shot in that area multiple times.

 

1. 100 is not 50% less than 150.

2. Medics usually wear lighter armour as they're NOT meant as direct combat troops. Many medics in Iraq, for instance, kept wearing PASGT armour well after it was phased out for actual combat troops. I think they inherited the OTV vests when the combat troops switched to IOTV in 2007, but I could be wrong. I assumed the grunts and marines were wearing OTV, while the medics (both of which are support troops) were still wearing PASGT and the officers were lazy enough to either remove parts of their armour or keep their older PASGT armour to save on weight. (NOT that far fetched. I knew a guy whose officer would stay in the vehicle and have the enlisted men do everything so he never had to walk anywhere, and still complained about how heavy his gear was. Managers are just fucking pricks the world over, aren't they?)

 

I meant 100 + 50% / 100 x 1.5 = 150

 

While that is usually true, presumably the HECU medics would be fully equipped just because of the nature of their unit. Plus, doesn't Black Mesa depict all soldiers wearing the same armor in-game? Well, that would explain the officers more, at least...

 

On the PASGT: was the vest and helmet + rifle-proof plates common? As I said, everything I've read indicates that the plates for the PASGT were produced in very limited numbers, and that usually soldiers would get just get the vest with no rifle protection before the switch to Interceptor armor. They could all be wrong, though.

 

Are you STILL ignoring their extremely high melee damage? Or the fact that (outside of Black Mesa) they come grouped with hard-hitting vortigaunts like, ALL the time? They are quite challenging, even to the very heavily armoured Gordon Freeman, and scuffles with them are best handled from a distance, vortigaunts killed first, otherwise you will lose a LOT of health and armour and likely all of your allies if you have any at that point.

 

Also, if you thought the grunts were beastly before, you should see how they perform now. I think the wake-up call is when you've gotten pretty used to the idea that HECU=BADASS and then see two marines get killed by a pair of grunts right after they wake up. See, combining very high melee damage with good speed and near-invulnerability to bullets from the front makes them extremely dangerous. I usually find circle-strafing to hit them in the back, preferably with a weapon they don't resist (energy weapons, crossbow, .357 or the crowbar) is the best way to deal with them because otherwise you're stuck fighting an enemy head-on that can totally tank full magazines of fire and hits like a runaway truck.

 

Okay, that sounds pretty challenging.

 

2. Depends on difficulty and hit location. I only play on hard and usually use 2-3 shots. Whereas with the tank I'd show up with full ammo and have to scavenge for more rockets just to take it out because the rocket launcher (otherwise overpowered as hell) can easily take over half a dozen hits on hard and keep on going.

 

3. 150, same as the HECU marines. The Overwatch elites have 200, same as the Opposing Force marine allies.

 

So the OSIPR would take 15 shots to down an Overwatch soldier? Scaled for damage, wouldn't that make it weaker than the 5.56 M249 from Opposing Force? Do you actually think it is or is that just for gameplay reasons?

 

Why not? I assumed his armour to be much better than the IOTV, and the IOTV will stop it a grand total of once. (Although the soldier will still have at least one broken rib and a deflated lung, not necessarily a fatal injury but enough to take him off active duty for quite a while and it could be fatal under the right circumstances due to internal bleeding and breathing issues.) The .50 isn't a cannon, and it only has about the penetrative ability of an armour-piercing rifle round. It's a lot bigger and hits a lot harder, so hard armour has a much bigger problem with it, but it can still be stopped at least once by an NIJ-IV vest. I assumed Gordon's armour had somewhat better protective abilities and could take multiple hits due to its nature as electro-reactive armour.

 

Wait, really!?

 

I was always under the impression that the .50 BMG, an anti-materiel rifle cartridge, was just too powerful for any man-portable armor to stop (or at least so powerful that no man could survive getting by it even if his armor was somehow able to stop it due to the kinetic energy). That's the impression I got from various testing videos and articles. You got any sources for the claim that standard armor today would both stop it and let the wearer survive a hit from that? I mean, I know it would technically be possible to survive (the human body can survive a lot of things, and some people actually have survived it), but it actually being likely thanks to armor?

[Seattleite]

But not even one game design team has ever had a competent consultant who could let them in on something like this?

 

Game studios don't hire consultants at all. When they do, they don't hire ones that know what they're talking about. On the rare instance that manages to pass, they don't listen to them. It's the exact same shit you see with consultants in movies, only worse.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Also: abdomen shots. ANOTHER way I can mentally make myself somewhat comfortable with Freeman killing armored American soldiers.

 

Except even with the abdomen, there's still kevlar and chainmail that will stop all small-arms fire dead. The armour is still IIIA down there and nothing Gordon has will penetrate that.

 

I meant 100 + 50% / 100 x 1.5 = 150

 

That may be what you meant, but it is not what you said.

 

While that is usually true, presumably the HECU medics would be fully equipped just because of the nature of their unit. Plus, doesn't Black Mesa depict all soldiers wearing the same armor in-game? Well, that would explain the officers more, at least...

 

1. Man, I'm just justifying a gameplay choice.

2. You'd be surprised how similar PASGT and Interceptor look, especially with the older OTV vests.

3. You'd also think that by the nature of their unit the HECU would bring, you know, hazmat equipment. And probably a better supply of anti-material munitions. And have dedicated ordnance technicians. Yet, none of that's there.

 

On the PASGT: was the vest and helmet + rifle-proof plates common? As I said, everything I've read indicates that the plates for the PASGT were produced in very limited numbers, and that usually soldiers would get just get the vest with no rifle protection before the switch to Interceptor armor. They could all be wrong, though.

 

Before 1993? Basically non-existant. During 1993? Very limited usage. After 1993? Any troops deployed were supposed to wear them but there weren't many before the interceptor replaced it and just because they were supposed to doesn't mean they did. It was the battle of Mogadishu that made them start issuing them, where the weak plates in the current armour failed to stop a rather massive number of US troops from dying of chest wounds from the local militia's rifles.

 

Okay, that sounds pretty challenging.

 

Damn straight.

 

So the OSIPR would take 15 shots to down an Overwatch soldier? Scaled for damage, wouldn't that make it weaker than the 5.56 M249 from Opposing Force? Do you actually think it is or is that just for gameplay reasons?

 

Yes, it would. To the OSIPR's credit, it is a functional energy weapon with a very small magazine that holds a LOT of ammunition and hits pretty well, but the hit effect, a small, concentrated surface blast, makes me believe it isn't a very good armour penetrator compared to a rifle and that's important to the damage scores I end up assigning. If it would deal great damage but it is terrible against armour, it still gets a low score (see: shotgun) but if it would deal little damage but it is great against armour (see: 5.56) it still gets a high score. I have no doubt the OSIPR would be better against some targets, but against soldiers in padded body armour it seems doubtful it would be all that effective if it really is dealing blast damage.

 

Wait, really!?

 

I was always under the impression that the .50 BMG, an anti-materiel rifle cartridge, was just too powerful for any man-portable armor to stop (or at least so powerful that no man could survive getting by it even if his armor was somehow able to stop it due to the kinetic energy). That's the impression I got from various testing videos and articles. You got any sources for the claim that standard armor today would both stop it and let the wearer survive a hit from that? I mean, I know it would technically be possible to survive (the human body can survive a lot of things, and some people actually have survived it), but it actually being likely thanks to armor?

 

The thing about the .50 is that its penetration really isn't that fantastic. It penetrates about twice as deep as a 7.62x51mm FMJ round. Know what else penetrates about twice as deep as a 7.62x51mm FMJ? A 7.62x51mm AP round. Guess what the plates in our troops' armour has no issue at all stopping over and over again? Well, in the .50's case it hits really hard so it'll break the plate and likely cause quite a bit of damage clear through the armour, but NIJ-IV body armour with inlaid ceramic plates can stop it exactly one time enough to make it a (most likely) non-lethal wound at the expense of destroying the plate.

 

I could only find one example that didn't use armour-piercing rounds on it, or was actually testing body armour.

 

RGhIfTAcOgI

 

Stopped it on the first plate. I've seen better tests, though. Including one with an actual IOTV vest on a wooden stand, being shot with an M107 at 50m, where the armour stopped it but the stand fell over and the plate inside was shattered.

[RandomGuy]

Game studios don't hire consultants at all. When they do, they don't hire ones that know what they're talking about. On the rare instance that manages to pass, they don't listen to them. It's the exact same shit you see with consultants in movies, only worse.

 

There hasn't even been one?

 

Except even with the abdomen, there's still kevlar and chainmail that will stop all small-arms fire dead. The armour is still IIIA down there and nothing Gordon has will penetrate that.

 

Keep in mind that I was combining this with my other theories in the context of justifying the events of Freeman's Mind (an HK53 would have no trouble going through III-A armor). As for Half-Life itself, as I said, I like to assume that the HD pack was "canon", both because it looks better (aside from the shotgun and pistol) and because a few small things make more sense (more sensible main weapon for the marines, bullsquids get spikes on their tails, Grunts seem to have a bit more armor).

 

2. You'd be surprised how similar PASGT and Interceptor look, especially with the older OTV vests.

3. You'd also think that by the nature of their unit the HECU would bring, you know, hazmat equipment. And probably a better supply of anti-material munitions. And have dedicated ordnance technicians. Yet, none of that's there.

 

I suppose that's true. I always thought it was weird that only half of them wore gas masks. Not that gas masks alone would be much of a help in some cases.

 

Before 1993? Basically non-existant. During 1993? Very limited usage. After 1993? Any troops deployed were supposed to wear them but there weren't many before the interceptor replaced it and just because they were supposed to doesn't mean they did. It was the battle of Mogadishu that made them start issuing them, where the weak plates in the current armour failed to stop a rather massive number of US troops from dying of chest wounds from the local militia's rifles.

 

There was something wrong with the plates the soldiers in Somalia were issued? I thought the problem was the fact that the hard armor only covered the chest, while leaving the back and abdomen exposed?

 

Okay, I'm just going recall everything I know about the general trends of US body armor from the PASGT to the IOTV, from the various books and articles I've read, and TV shows and videos I've watched. Correct me if I'm wrong or miss something important. Considering the book where I got most of the pre-2003 information was from... 2000, I think, I probably am.

 

-The soldiers deployed to Mogadishu wore Ranger Body Armor, a III-A vest turned into level III armor with the plate. However, it only covered the chest, so more soldiers died than needed to. From here they started issuing back plates too. This body armor was usually only used by special units. It was used in Somalia, Yugoslavia, and Iraq (for a short time).

-Throughout the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, the standard issue body armor was the kevlar PASGT. The vest on its own was designed to stop fragmentation, even though from the tests I've seen it can also stop pistol bullets that would put up it to par with certified II-A or II standard vests (depending on the source). It provided no protection against rifles.

-In 1996, a small number (4,000) of rifle-proof plates compatible with the PASGT vest were produced as an interim product for the armor switch. They were issued to US troops in Yugoslavia in limited numbers. They covered the chest and back.

-Around late 2003, the PASGT was replaced by the Interceptor body armor, specifically the OTV model, which on its own (i.e. just the vest) was III-A, a huge improvement over the last armor, and with the relevant ceramic plates was III. It could stop a few 7.62 rounds and about a dozen 5.56 (depending on range, of course).

-In late 2007/early 2008, the OTV was phased out in favor of the level IV IOTV, which not only covered more of the body (most of the abdomen + the sides), but featured new and improved plates.

 

The thing about the .50 is that its penetration really isn't that fantastic. It penetrates about twice as deep as a 7.62x51mm FMJ round. Know what else penetrates about twice as deep as a 7.62x51mm FMJ? A 7.62x51mm AP round. Guess what the plates in our troops' armour has no issue at all stopping over and over again? Well, in the .50's case it hits really hard so it'll break the plate and likely cause quite a bit of damage clear through the armour, but NIJ-IV body armour with inlaid ceramic plates can stop it exactly one time enough to make it a (most likely) non-lethal wound at the expense of destroying the plate.

 

I could only find one example that didn't use armour-piercing rounds on it, or was actually testing body armour.

 

I can believe that (the tests I've seen where it just blasted through the plate was with level III armor), but still, this is a lot to swallow considering it's an anti-materiel cartridge. A big one. As I said, even if the plate somehow managed to stop the bullet itself, would the person wearing it really not get their bones cracked and internal organs turned into jelly from the pure kinetic energy of the impact, even if it wasn't specifically an AP round? The way you make it sound, it's survivable, with the wearer only getting incapacitated, being put in need of immediate medical attention, and being rendered combat incapable for a while.

 

...plus, the people in the video you posted used two plates.

[Seattleite]

There hasn't even been one?

 

Not as far as I am aware, no. Even games like ARMA assume armour is totally worthless.

 

Keep in mind that I was combining this with my other theories in the context of justifying the events of Freeman's Mind (an HK53 would have no trouble going through III-A armor). As for Half-Life itself, as I said, I like to assume that the HD pack was "canon", both because it looks better (aside from the shotgun and pistol) and because a few small things make more sense (more sensible main weapon for the marines, bullsquids get spikes on their tails, Grunts seem to have a bit more armor).

 

The only issues I have with this are:

A: The MP5 is a perfectly sensible weapon for the marines. They are going into CQB, expecting predominately unarmoured targets. They would be using a weapon well-suited for that, and the MP5 is very, very well-suited for that. While them also brining along carbines would make sense, the MP5 present and their primary weapon for the circumstance is entirely logical.

B: The HD pack STILL has the M4 chambered in 9mm. No amount of ignoring this issue will make it go away.

 

There was something wrong with the plates the soldiers in Somalia were issued? I thought the problem was the fact that the hard armor only covered the chest, while leaving the back and abdomen exposed?

 

No, the front and back were both covered. Assuming the soldiers actually wore the back plates like they were supposed to. Plenty didn't, which was swiftly corrected after the battle of Mogadishu.

 

Okay, I'm just going recall everything I know about the general trends of US body armor from the PASGT to the IOTV, from the various books and articles I've read, and TV shows and videos I've watched. Correct me if I'm wrong or miss something important. Considering the book where I got most of the pre-2003 information was from... 2000, I think, I probably am.

 

A few things. Let's go one at a time.

 

-The soldiers deployed to Mogadishu wore Ranger Body Armor, a III-A vest turned into level III armor with the plate. However, it only covered the chest, so more soldiers died than needed to. From here they started issuing back plates too. This body armor was usually only used by special units. It was used in Somalia, Yugoslavia, and Iraq (for a short time).

 

It came with back plates, but the plates were frequently discarded out of lazyness, and ranger armour was not common in the military as a whole. While the battle of Mogadishu was the reasoning behind the decision to up-armour US troops and issue stronger plates. I believe the nickname for that armour was "second chance" because it couldn't reliably stop more than one rifle bullet. (Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't.) The ranger armour failed to function for the soldiers because they were hit multiple times and the plates couldn't handle multiple shots. New plates were later issued that could stop multiple rounds.

 

-Throughout the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, the standard issue body armor was the kevlar PASGT. The vest on its own was designed to stop fragmentation, even though from the tests I've seen it can also stop pistol bullets that would put up it to par with certified II-A or II standard vests (depending on the source). It provided no protection against rifles.

 

It also didn't really provide much protection against shrapnel. It was complete shit, and the reason most veterens from that era firmly believe body armour to be worthless. Kevlar is useless against edged weapons and the thing was overall useless in warfare. The armour itself was NIJ-II, but with the plates originally issued it was III-A. After 1993, new plates were issued for PASGT that brought it up to NIJ-III, but they didn't last under fire any more than the ones the rangers used to have. (I think they may have inherited the old ranger plates, but I could be wrong.)

 

-In 1996, a small number (4,000) of rifle-proof plates compatible with the PASGT vest were produced as an interim product for the armor switch. They were issued to US troops in Yugoslavia in limited numbers. They covered the chest and back.

 

Those plates may have been issued, but they were neither the first nor the largest run of anti-rifle plates for the PASGT vest. I believe you're thinking of the limited run of OTV-style plates that was put out to increase protection until interceptor armour could be issued. I thought that was later than 1996, though I could be wrong.

 

-Around late 2003, the PASGT was replaced by the Interceptor body armor, specifically the OTV model, which on its own (i.e. just the vest) was III-A, a huge improvement over the last armor, and with the relevant ceramic plates was III. It could stop a few 7.62 rounds and about a dozen 5.56 (depending on range, of course).

 

For the most part, that's correct. It also features an actual anti-shrapnel chainmail layer, which the PASGT didn't. The thing is, though, that 7.62 is a large range. Do you maybe mean 7.62x51mm or 7.62x39mm? In the former case you'd be correct, in the latter it would be more and likely as many as half a dozen.

 

-In late 2007/early 2008, the OTV was phased out in favor of the level IV IOTV, which not only covered more of the body (most of the abdomen + the sides), but featured new and improved plates.

 

The IOTV is nice, but the plating doesn't cover the abdomen or sides, only the kevlar does. And yeah, it's pretty damned awesome.

 

I can believe that (the tests I've seen where it just blasted through the plate was with level III armor), but still, this is a lot to swallow considering it's an anti-materiel cartridge. A big one. As I said, even if the plate somehow managed to stop the bullet itself, would the person wearing it really not get their bones cracked and internal organs turned into jelly from the pure kinetic energy of the impact, even if it wasn't specifically an AP round?

 

...plus, the people in the video you posted used two plates.

 

1. Doing that kind of damage through impact alone would take a cannon. And not a small cannon, either. The .50 is NOT that powerful, and while the impact would likely break a rib or two and rupture a lung that's all it's going to do and it's highly unlikely such an injury would even be life-threatening. Firearms do NOT work as bludgeoning weapons, they do NOT have the momentum, and the .50 is no different. There's no man-portable firearm with enough power to turn internal organs "into jelly from the pure kinetic energy". The human body is one durable piece of machinery, one especially strong against "pure kinetic energy" and it's certainly not the plasticine figure you seem to be imagining.

2. The number of plates has no bearing, the first plate stopped it and did so in a circumstance where it is MUCH worse off than it would be inside body armour on a soldier's body. (As it's more firmly fixed and can't move away from the impact or shift to change the angle like it would in a vest.) Granted, that's a standalone plate, but NIJ-IV body armour on a soldier's body would outperform a standalone plate sitting against a hard object.