Does God exist? (your opinion anyways.)

[Doom Shepherd]

Can and will are two entirely different words... Just because He can do something, doesn't mean He will do it.

Humans have a variety of terms for someone who can help people without sustaining any loss or making any appreciable effort, but won't.

 

None of them are complimentary.

 

 

He created this universe to test us

*Citation needed

 

Doesn't mean He doesn't know the outcome, or that He can't come to the same conclusion a different way. (just a thought)

Which implies that he just doesn't care, at best.

It's like saying "well, yes, I COULD get the same result by either flicking this dust mote, OR drowning a million kittens... get the bucket ready."

 

(That's actually the kind of indifferent God that I might be able to accept, since it fits the state of the universe far more snugly, but it does rather throw the whole "omnibenevolent" thing out the window.)

 

There are always going to be problems truly understanding an omnipotent omniscient being's actions, since we can not comprehend what it is like to be that being.

 

I'm not sure I accept that as an axiom, but for now, as thoughs go, how's this one?

 

Humans can form interpersonal relationships because, on some level, they can comprehend the feelings and actions of the other person. When this does not happen, the relationship always fails. How much LESS likely is it to have a personal relationship with a being that CANNOT be comprehended?

[BTGBullseye]

I like this, we're on to a non-violent discussion about the nature of God, and existence itself. This is something that rarely happens, usually people get so offended concerning this subject.

 

Your extrapolation of my axiom does seem quite sound, I currently have no response to it. That being said, because of the extreme gap between us and said being, with the being not interfering in our daily lives, it is possible to have a relationship without having understanding. (like two friends who have radically differing political/social views, they never talk about them so they can remain friends)

[the one the only]

in my view there is no god or if there is they have given up on us as we are a plague on the earth. We hunt other species to extinction and attack each other over the smallest difference. how could any deity support us.

[RandomGuy]

If there is, which there is no evidence for, its not something we should worship.

[Vapymid]

"how could any deity support us."

 

Ahem... AFAIK, most religious doctrines state or imply that man has been created in the image and likeness of the relevant deity. Not supporting us in such circumstances would be hypocritical.

 

Regards

[Doom Shepherd]

I like this, we're on to a non-violent discussion about the nature of God, and existence itself. This is something that rarely happens, usually people get so offended concerning this subject.

 

Your extrapolation of my axiom does seem quite sound, I currently have no response to it. That being said, because of the extreme gap between us and said being, with the being not interfering in our daily lives, it is possible to have a relationship without having understanding. (like two friends who have radically differing political/social views, they never talk about them so they can remain friends)

 

And another conumdrum would be: If the being does not interfere in our daily lives, why are humans constantly (especially on Sunday mornings) requesting that it do exactly that? And in fact following (allegedly) its own directives in doing so?

 

It's like "I want you to pray to me to make you well, or defeat your enemies, or grant you prosperity. I'm not actually gonna DO it, but I want you to do it anyway."

[BTGBullseye]

It is a difficulty... Then again, maybe just tilting the table of chance slightly is all that is possible...

[sheridanm962]

Okay so from my understanding of what I read in various places and whatever, it seems God is some entity which created the universe. Someone told me that this creature per se based in String Theory as part of a higher construct than our Third Dimensional world and the reason he cannot interact with us is that we're not on the same page, or Dimension. It's possible that if this creature exists as such that he can see time itself happening all at once, that would be quite insane to some of us, but at least this creature was born like that, or maybe at least not born at all. The Universe is supposed to be some sort of underlying fabric that with the right understanding can answer a lot of unsolvable questions if you just throw rocks at it and try and get some answers from it. But then again, it can't answer back because the Universe is of course within the bounds of all Dimensions, but yet the way we see it is as such just out of our hands. Of course I'm not that experienced in telling of theories etc but then again I can still share my knowledge of what I've seen and heard of (seen as in read).

 

Okay so the next thing is that there can't be a "nothing" after we die because that would possibly null void everything to the point where nothing would exist in the first place, The Big Bang wouldn't even be theorized and we wouldn't have such knowledge of "Spirits, ghosts" and other such unsolved and unproven phenomena. That's pretty much a middle ground between it being proven and unproven at the same time, we can't prove it and yet we cannot prove it doesn't exist because there again, it's out of our hands. We cannot simply come up with a conclusion, rather we can only theorize and speculate on the matter. So in this case the whole nothingness after we die thing actually has a chance to be false because of the pretense properties that comes before it.

 

Side note: So now is talking to yourself crazy...? Don't answer that... Hey don't tell them what to do. Hey, who said YOU can say anything. Oh crap I'm arguing with myself, is that crazy or is this just a "Crazy" innuendo. <---That. Stop pointing, it's RUDE!!!

 

Okay so moving along: We'd have to have a soul if we have emotions and if we're self aware to the point when we know of our impending death, the more I go on about that though, the more someone would have the courage to try and prove me wrong. But I'm not here to say "This is the proof, blah blah blah", I'm just talking about what I heard so just shut up and read: In Science or Science itself thinks that we don't have Emotions or say Feelings, that they're simply chemical signals interpenetrated by our brains, but we know emotions exist in a soul or whatever and that they aren't just bound by "chemicals" (hurr durr, spaghetti lurr) because we actually feel these things and various other living things which were said to not have these properties actually have them and react to certain things (I think... Citation needed? I don't know). Science hasn't proven that a soul doesn't exist, it cannot because it's only about the material world and that's all we can prove, which is why we have theories in the first place, there are some things we cannot prove or disprove. People said that Stephen Hawking thinks that the after life is just a fairy tale, but in actual fact he said by conventional standards because it's of the unknown, so he himself feels/thinks that it could possibly exist but not as others think, in this case maybe the ghost/spirit theory can be more true than an afterlife, who knows...

 

Okay so here's the last thing I'm going to talk about until my next post (I seriously want this topic to continue, this is one of the various things I think about most): How in the fuck did we go from tape reeled computers to what we have now, can this explain why we have no knowledge of Aliens in the first place, that we have things like computer components of today and that other stuff from after the 1950's-60's, whatever is Alien technology back in the day...? That could mean that they're looking at us now and wondering why we haven't evolved past the point of what they gave us yet, maybe it's just an experiment set out by them to test our abilities. In that case, we're so fucking far behind it's not even funny, we've made little progress because they probably don't have money, or at least have a better way of dealing with such things than us. Yeah, I'm starting to think Aliens are either of a different race or just Humans sent back from the Future to make their lives better, those smug fucks are getting even BETTER technology than we could ever hope for as of now... Why am I so jealous of something that we as people on the surface don't know fully about...? SHIT They're that good! I idol those Aliens so badly.

 

I'm hoping the Aliens were a cover up because some day I want to possibly leave this planet and get anally raped by some aliens for no reason, just to be put back here like nothing happened, that it was just a crazy dream I got raped in vividly and lucidly... Er... I mean: I want to see Aliens as much as you guys, no homo.

 

Yeah I really do hope Aliens were a cover up, here's hoping to that!

[Doom Shepherd]

It's funny because every time you say "we know," I want to correct you and say "no, we actually don't," and every time you say "we don't know" I want to correct you and say "yes, actually, that we DO know."

 

As for the whole "how do we have technology now that we didn't before? thing... we invent stuff. Everything is based on earlier stuff, plus experimentation. Don't fall for the "Cargo Cult" fallacy.

[Collective Foal]

So my stance towards God has changed in the past couple years. I feel as though there is a balance to things and I personally believe that we are reborn after we live out one life cycle, but for the most part we're just freestyling through everything. I don't believe in a real God entity. I'm more of a hard science guy. I personally believe all the holy books are like a really sophisticated, world changing Aesop's fables. They set out moral standards to prevent societies from collapsing in harsh times and to give hope for the same reasons. People like the Puritans were spiritual masochists and got the whole thing wrong.

 

Yeah, these days, I view religion from a very objective, third person standpoint. Am I going to raise my children on religion and have them go to church when they're young? Absolutely. They're free to think what they like about God and all that, but they're absolutely going to receive the fabulous moral education that the Bible or any other book of faith teaches. But we sure as fuck ain't going to no traditional church. We're gonna have a damn fun time at church and we'll party with Buddy Christ

[misses_bull]

I kinda stopped believeing in god because when im the kind of person who the bible is agaisnt.

[Collective Foal]

I kinda stopped believeing in god because when im the kind of person who the bible is agaisnt.

 

Remember, the Bible was written by Medieval monks. It's a tad biased. If you're talking about homosexuality/ sexual deviance, you have to moreso look at the community and people in the church itself as opposed to the book it is based on. There are numerous gays at my Uncle's methodist church. Many Christian churches tolerate and love people of any sexuality. God isn't about what some dusty old book says you should believe. God is about what you believe based on what you see around you. One shouldn't release faith because of what they've been taught of the faith. Your faith or lack thereof should be dependent only on your own inner feelings and thoughts, not those that others press upon you.

[Xalder]

Hope it's alright to revive this thread. The title is quite a loaded question because it could be referring to any god of any religion. Personally I don't like the idea of religion being the most central thing in people's lives. Religion should support spiritual wellness, but far too much you see it affecting people's judgement in the media. Why doesn't the U.S. have marriage equality? Why are there people who will fight to force pregnant women to have unwanted children rather than going through with an abortion? If we look at those questions from a purely logical standpoint, there's no reason for there to be any sort of question about it.

 

As for whether a divine being exists, my answer is that if one does they don't involve themselves in our lives. I'm agnostic about it overall, but I'll clearly state that what I DON'T believe in is divine intervention. I don't believe that if a divine being exists, they'll involve themselves in our own lives in any apparent way.

 

I very specifically choose not to believe in the Christian God. In fact, from Christian Mythology I'd be much more interested in having a conversation with Lucifer, who was cast out of heaven for disagreeing with God. I'm a little fuzzy on the information but isn't he the one that thought to give humans knowledge? How long was God planning to keep Adam and Eve ignorant, unable, unwilling, and uncaring about discovering the profound wonders of the world around them? Lucifer was made out to be a "tempter" who caused us to lose "paradise." Personally I'd take knowledge and wonder over eternal "bliss" and being forced to worship some divine being who created the world, gave us free will, but never wanted us to exercise the ability of free will.

 

Original sin is also bullshit. Surely someone would eventually have eaten the forbidden fruit, assuming Adam and Eve were ever allowed to reproduce which I suppose might not have ever happened had they remained in "paradise." Why newborn children are assumed to have some moral impairment because of some action of their distant ancestors is beyond reason. It can relate to how eventually people have to get over the transgressions that happened in the past such as slave trading or the way the U.S. took over the inhabited land and relocated native peoples to specific confined areas.

 

Speaking of which there was also the whole deal with giving "education" to native americans which included forcing the bible and the christian religion onto them. I also can't stand bigotry. I don't like to hate people, but people that spread hate are absolutely despicable. Convincing gay people that there's something wrong with them and to hate themselves for having emotions for a member of the same sex is just disgusting. I'd say it's the worst but there's a lot of bad things people have done in the name of religion.

 

I'm tired and I'm already not citing any sources for any of my information so I'll stop there. I'll need to read into some history again sometime soon. I don't get enough of it from college classes. It's the thing I'm most interested in but everything is either too broad or too specific. Maybe I should look into sociology more than history because I'm interested in global connections and interaction. But wait, sociology focuses more on people, I want to focus on the connections between different countries and governments. Whatever.

[BTGBullseye]

In fact, from Christian Mythology I'd be much more interested in having a conversation with Lucifer, who was cast out of heaven for disagreeing with God.

He didn't "disagree with God" he wanted to become God. He wanted to take power, not to just have things done differently.

 

I'm a little fuzzy on the information but isn't he the one that thought to give humans knowledge?

No. He did it to spite God, and ruin the relationship between God and Man.

 

Imagine it like this: A guy and his friend get in a fight because they both want to be captain of the football team, the one that is already the Captain wins the fight, so they become enemies. Later on, the Captain gets a girlfriend, so the enemy decides to get back at the Captain by making them break up. It works, but they remain friends. The Captain knows that it was his enemy that caused the breakup, and tells his ex to be wary of him, and even tells her what sort of tricks he uses to try and manipulate people. The enemy decides to try and make the ex-girlfriend fall for him, just to rub it in.

 

Do you understand at least a little?

 

Personally I'd take knowledge and wonder over eternal "bliss" and being forced to worship some divine being who created the world, gave us free will, but never wanted us to exercise the ability of free will.

Actually, before being thrown out of the garden, God and Man walked together... Like good buddies, not like someone that worshiped the other. Man had, and used free will, but didn't have the "knowledge of good and evil" which if IIRC is a bad translation of the words that described the idea... It was something closer to "the urge to do bad things, despite knowing that it was bad". (you can't see where the light shines, unless there's dark somewhere)

 

It's extremely hard to put this type of idea into words.

 

Surely someone would eventually have eaten the forbidden fruit, assuming Adam and Eve were ever allowed to reproduce which I suppose might not have ever happened had they remained in "paradise."

Why? Before that, they had no urges to even try the forbidden fruit... (if someone says that one type of apple will kill you, but the rest of the extremely plentiful fruit around you would be good, would you risk it?) That was introduced by the serpent when he said "surely you will not die". (serpent, not snake; it was probly closer to a dragon than a snake if the original wording, and historical references are to be believed)

 

I could also get into what God and the devil meant when they talked about dying, but suffice to say that, once you lose innocence, you can never regain it... Innocence can die without you physically dying. You can cease to be who you are, without physical death.

 

Speaking of which there was also the whole deal with giving "education" to native americans which included forcing the bible and the christian religion onto them. I also can't stand bigotry. I don't like to hate people, but people that spread hate are absolutely despicable. Convincing gay people that there's something wrong with them and to hate themselves for having emotions for a member of the same sex is just disgusting. I'd say it's the worst but there's a lot of bad things people have done in the name of religion.

Doing it in the name of a religion doesn't mean that it's actually following the teachings of said religion. Taking things out of context can give radically different meanings to what is actually intended. (and that is where a vast majority of the wrongs attributed to certain religions come from)

[Vapymid]

Imagine it like this: A guy and his friend get in a fight because they both want to be captain of the football team, the one that is already the Captain wins the fight, so they become enemies. Later on, the Captain gets a girlfriend, so the enemy decides to get back at the Captain by making them break up. It works, but they remain friends. The Captain knows that it was his enemy that caused the breakup, and tells his ex to be wary of him, and even tells her what sort of tricks he uses to try and manipulate people. The enemy decides to try and make the ex-girlfriend fall for him, just to rub it in.

 

That sounds just like the story of England national football team captaincy a couple of years back!

 

But, seriously, I have a couple of big issues with Genesis or rather its literal interpretation:

 

1: God said to A & E: “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Yet, he let them roam around like rosy idiots without knowing anything and even unable to tell good from evil - how could they rule over anything if they knew bugger all?

 

2. "Be fruitful" can only mean making a beast of two backs and having lots of babies. Yet, sex is what the religions equate to sin - how did that come about?

 

When God told A & E out for eating his apple - did he say anything about sex? I couldn't find it anywhere...

 

God and Man walked together... Like good buddies, not like someone that worshiped the other.

 

Not how I read it. Not like buddies, more like a village idiot who is supposed to do all the dirty work without realising he is being exploited. After all, it is when God has kicked A & E sorry asses out of Eden that he said - “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”

 

However, to be fair, the Lord God did make garments of skin for Adam and his wife and did cloth them before they left. Which makes me think he wasn't *that* upset about the whole Tree of Knowledge affair and maybe he had that planned all along...

 

Regards,

 

P.S. Excuse me for the light-hearted tone of my post. I hope I don't sound too irreverent, given the subject involved - if I offended anyone, I apologise, please let me know...

[BTGBullseye]

1: God said to A & E: “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Yet, he let them roam around like rosy idiots without knowing anything and even unable to tell good from evil - how could they rule over anything if they knew bugger all?

They had to figure it out... Adam named every animal there was before God even made Eve... Back before they got kicked out of the garden, there wasn't any death. (and no risk of injury either) Most of what occurred in the garden wasn't included because it was irrelevant at the time. (ie. what import is it what names he gave the animals?)

 

2. "Be fruitful" can only mean making a beast of two backs and having lots of babies. Yet, sex is what the religions equate to sin - how did that come about?

I can think of no religion that equates sex to sin, unless you're talking about Necromongers... Sex outside of marriage, yes, but not sex in general.

 

When God told A & E out for eating his apple - did he say anything about sex? I couldn't find it anywhere...

Why would he? There's even an implication that they already had children while in the garden... God told them that child birth would be painful, which due to the wording meant it previously wasn't, and they had dealt with it.

 

God and Man walked together... Like good buddies, not like someone that worshiped the other.

 

Not how I read it. Not like buddies, more like a village idiot who is supposed to do all the dirty work without realising he is being exploited. After all, it is when God has kicked A & E sorry asses out of Eden that he said - “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

Interpretations are a curse. You have to look for what was intended, not what it sounds like now that it's been translated through 2-3 languages, and several versions of the languages.

 

However, to be fair, the Lord God did make garments of skin for Adam and his wife and did cloth them before they left. Which makes me think he wasn't *that* upset about the whole Tree of Knowledge affair and maybe he had that planned all along...

He's God... I seriously doubt he wouldn't be prepared for every possible eventuality.

 

P.S. Excuse me for the light-hearted tone of my post. I hope I don't sound too irreverent, given the subject involved - if I offended anyone, I apologise, please let me know...

You offended the Mighty Whatsit religion... You must now suffer the consequences. Now you must LIVE!!! AND DIE EVENTUALLY!!!

[ThePest179]

Doing it in the name of a religion doesn't mean that it's actually following the teachings of said religion. Taking things out of context can give radically different meanings to what is actually intended. (and that is where a vast majority of the wrongs attributed to certain religions come from)

 

And probably hundreds of millions of people killed in the name of religion to increase their power base or seem more justified in murder. It's still wrong, and a lot of the blood spilt might not have happened were religion erased.

[BTGBullseye]

Religion or not, wouldn't have changed that people kill other people. They used religion as an excuse, not a motivator.

[Xalder]

Doing it in the name of a religion doesn't mean that it's actually following the teachings of said religion. Taking things out of context can give radically different meanings to what is actually intended. (and that is where a vast majority of the wrongs attributed to certain religions come from)

 

And probably hundreds of millions of people killed in the name of religion to increase their power base or seem more justified in murder. It's still wrong, and a lot of the blood spilt might not have happened were religion erased.

 

Not necessarily, but it's still an important factor. The history books aren't written by the losers, because they lost and don't exist because they were killed. In other words - were not the crusades shown to be romantic and inspiring, the spread of God's will or whatever when in reality it was a bloody and murderous campaign?

 

.... [citation needed]

 

I really need to do more studying.

 

Off-topic if anyone could recommend any good history books, that might be cool.

[Vapymid]

I can think of no religion that equates sex to sin, unless you're talking about Necromongers... Sex outside of marriage, yes, but not sex in general.

 

I don't know, maybe it's a misconception on my part but I feel that all our culture is pervaded by implication that sex (or rather sexual desire) is a manifestation of the original sin. Equating virginity with innocence, kids being OK if watching Rambo but them seeing a pair of tits flashing on TV destroys the innocence etc...

 

You have to look for what was intended

 

But how can you do that without interpreting?

 

He's God... I seriously doubt he wouldn't be prepared for every possible eventuality.

 

Yes, it's very quantum mechanical - he had a superposition of all possible states ready to collapse to any of them... But what I meant was the whole thing seems to be a plan to send the mankind out of the cosy Eden to learn by ourselves, grow up, eventually find a way past the sleeping cherubs and the force shield, have a reunion with God and share a beer or two with him while discussing plans for creating a new Universe... This is my preferred interpretation.

 

You offended the Mighty Whatsit religion... You must now suffer the consequences.

 

Ah! The Mighty Whatsitists are nothing but a heretical sect! But I will redouble my ketchup sacrifices to placate He Whose Name Is Well Known, praised be His Noodly Appendages.

 

Regards