American debt situation

[Axeldeath]

What're they gonna do? If they stop lending everyone's economy crashes. And China or any other country would not be able to start a land invasion of the USA, it's almost impossible.

 

So you're saying it is just 100% impossible to do such a thing? How naive must you be? If China stops lending, everyone crashes. If the US stops lending, everything crashes. Too bad! this may be the ONLY solution, and I dare you to think of a better one!

 

The better one is everyone keeps loaning money. Unless you're Africa every country has massive debt, that's because debt means nothing by itself. Norway owes hundreds of millions of dollars but it could continue to run it's government and social welfare as it does now for another 50 years without any income.

 

Just using debt is a very shallow way of looking at economics.

[ThePest179]

What're they gonna do? If they stop lending everyone's economy crashes. And China or any other country would not be able to start a land invasion of the USA, it's almost impossible.

 

So you're saying it is just 100% impossible to do such a thing? How naive must you be? If China stops lending, everyone crashes. If the US stops lending, everything crashes. Too bad! this may be the ONLY solution, and I dare you to think of a better one!

 

The better one is everyone keeps loaning money. Unless you're Africa every country has massive debt, that's because debt means nothing by itself. Norway owes hundreds of millions of dollars but it could continue to run it's government and social welfare as it does now for another 50 years without any income.

 

Just using debt is a very shallow way of looking at economics.

 

In case you haven't noticed, THE DEBT IS THE PROBLEM. LOANING MONEY CREATES DEBT.

[BTGBullseye]

I believe the Chinese army is based on conscription. Being Russian, I can say from experience that armies made of conscripts are inferior to professional forces. The level of training is low, motivation is even lower.

True, but when you can train and send 10 million (that's more bullets than most US bases have in their stockpiles) troops in a surprise attack, (who says we'll see them coming, they could just load up onto container ships, and pass undetected) and go straight for the American bases, all while you're training another 10 million to go in as a second wave, and then another 10 million as a third, do you think that we're going to outlast them with less than 100,000 troops total?

 

Saddam had one of the largest armies in the world, relatively well equipped, yet it unraveled in the 1st Gulf War just as easily as in the 2nd.

I'd like to see numbers on that please... Especially since last I heard they never had the hardware and training that Chinese troops have.

 

Massive conscript-based army is OK for defence if you have to defend a *large* country from a land invasion. It is not good for invasion itself.

It's about the same either way, just that they're more likely to surrender outside of their own country if they go against a much larger force that would rather take them prisoner than kill them.

 

Firstly, they will never be able to cross the ocean in a massive armada required for transporting that number of men and materiel.

As before, container ships... It's not that hard, and they don't get checked until they're withing striking distance of our cities/bases.

 

Secondly, if any will still manage to reach the other shore, they will be mowed down on the beaches, where they will be defenceless, coming out of the water.

Only if the defending force has already put defenses in place specifically for the arrival of the invaders, which would require more resources and manpower than the US would be willing to commit to using for a never before seen or seriously considered situation. The US is way too arrogant in thinking they're immune to invasion.

 

By the way, the paratroops will all be dead by that stage, feeding the fishes, most will never have a change to open their chutes, poor sods.

What makes you think their ability to jump out of planes is ay less likely to open their parachutes than any other military force that has ever used paratroopers? Actually from what I hear, the US has more problems with their parachute systems now than the Chinese do.

 

In the meantime the world will watch in disbelief, then laugh hysterically at the stupidity of those who attempted such a moronic feat

Such a stupid feat, yes. But a successful one if you have a decent plan, and plan for the typical responses. (like the national guard, civilians with guns, retired military, basic military responses & doctrine that you can easily find online)

[Vapymid]

I am sorry, but it is just not possible.

 

Every large ship's movement is routinely monitored in real time by independent parties. If you disable transmitter on one, let alone on thousands of them, that in itself will cause the alarm.

 

All container ship voyages are planned and scheduled long time in advance, a massive deviation from the commercial schedules will be a dead giveaway.

 

Then, it is impossible to clandestinely load millions of people onto ships without it being noticed and widely reported. There are thousands of people working in each port in the world whose job it is to monitor and report ships and cargo movements. You can hide something from some of them but not everything from everyone. Chances are - you will hear about it on Tw@ter and see pictures on Youtube on the same day. That's not even talking about satellites...

 

Any embarkation operation of that scale will require a staging area around each port where you assemble the troops and equipment, you have to feed and water the people, provide sanitation, remove waste - the smell alone will alert everyone in the area that something is going on.

 

Then it will take 11 days for the ships to sail to the US - you must be of extremely low opinion about the competence of the CIA for them not to notice the armada of undeclared container ships heading for the US West Coast all of a sudden.

 

Even if the spooks will miss them, now they have arrived - how will they disembark and how long it will take them?

 

As for paratroops - it is very difficult to open a parachute when the plane you are on is crashing down towards the ocean in flames and in pieces. As the US bomber crews knew all too well during the WWII, by the way.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

I am sorry, but it is just not possible.

 

Every large ship's movement is routinely monitored in real time by independent parties. If you disable transmitter on one, let alone on thousands of them, that in itself will cause the alarm.

 

All container ship voyages are planned and scheduled long time in advance, a massive deviation from the commercial schedules will be a dead giveaway.

 

Then, it is impossible to clandestinely load millions of people onto ships without it being noticed and widely reported. There are thousands of people working in each port in the world whose job it is to monitor and report ships and cargo movements. You can hide something from some of them but not everything from everyone. Chances are - you will hear about it on Tw@ter and see pictures on Youtube on the same day. That's not even talking about satellites...

 

Any embarkation operation of that scale will require a staging area around each port where you assemble the troops and equipment, you have to feed and water the people, provide sanitation, remove waste - the smell alone will alert everyone in the area that something is going on.

 

Then it will take 11 days for the ships to sail to the US - you must be of extremely low opinion about the competence of the CIA for them not to notice the armada of undeclared container ships heading for the US West Coast all of a sudden.

 

Even if the spooks will miss them, now they have arrived - how will they disembark and how long it will take them?

 

As for paratroops - it is very difficult to open a parachute when the plane you are on is crashing down towards the ocean in flames and in pieces. As the US bomber crews knew all too well during the WWII, by the way.

 

Regards

 

Insane. You're just like those bastards at school, who think the US is invinceable. You think the US can just deflect the invasion, just like that, no poroblem. Listen to BTGBullseye and me. We know what the hell we're talking about.

[Vapymid]

We know what the hell we're talking about.

 

Well, then please share your knowledge. I am more than willing to listen if you can propose a plausible invasion scenario which would overcome the practical hurdles I outlined in my previous posts.

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

We know what the hell we're talking about.

 

Well, then please share your knowledge. I am more than willing to listen if you can propose a plausible invasion scenario which would overcome the practical hurdles I outlined in my previous posts.

 

Regards

 

Alright, how about a formal declearation of war after moths of buildup by China. The US would have little or no preperation, probably thinking the planned invasion would have been for Taiwan. The sheer size of the Chineese army would be enough to crush the US forces. and we haven't even talked about the possiblity of nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons being used. Even if the US west coast was bulit up to look like Omaha Beach, the sheer size of the invasion and possible use of WMD would probably break the defences (although this assumes that the US was preparing for the invasion from minute one). Just keep in mind though, that while I say all this crap it does not mean I believe it will happen.

[Vapymid]

Don't you think that the US armed forces will be stood on alert in the case of any Chinese military build up, even with the expectation that they only plan to strike at Taiwan?

 

There is still 11 days sailing time to the West Coast - the Chinese flotilla will be intercepted and sunk before they have a chance to commence the landings. The time is also more than enough to mobilise the National Guard, so that any stragglers which have somehow escaped the antishipping missiles and bombs will be met in force.

 

I don't think China or any other country has a realistic chance of invading the US with any kind of prior warning. Definitely, not by sea.

 

Mexico or Canada may hope for some initial success, through the sheer "WTF???" factor, but then what?

 

Regards

[ThePest179]

Don't you think that the US armed forces will be stood on alert in the case of any Chinese military build up, even with the expectation that they only plan to strike at Taiwan?

 

There is still 11 days sailing time to the West Coast - the Chinese flotilla will be intercepted and sunk before they have a chance to commence the landings. The time is also more than enough to mobilise the National Guard, so that any stragglers which have somehow escaped the antishipping missiles and bombs will be met in force.

 

I don't think China or any other country has a realistic chance of invading the US with any kind of prior warning. Definitely, not by sea.

 

Mexico or Canada may hope for some initial success, through the sheer "WTF???" factor, but then what?

 

Regards

 

Again, you regard America as an inviceable beast. You assume there will be no Chineese navy escort to protect the troop carriers, no aircraft carriers, no anything. And again, WMD play a special role. Not to mention the possibility of an EMP bomb(s). It is almost like you forget all the other factors.

[Axeldeath]

In case you haven't noticed, THE DEBT IS THE PROBLEM. LOANING MONEY CREATES DEBT.

 

And if you read what I wrote debt is a shallow way of looking at economics. What about fortune? Assets? GDP?

 

Besides that fact do you know why we have debt? It's so we can build infrastructure, administration, military etc. etc. which then turns into a profit to pay off the loan. Think about it in real life terms, if you couldn't get a student loan how would you attend University? If you couldn't take out a mortgage on your house do you think many would have them?

 

All this fear-mongering and mass media hype that you are perpetrating merely slows down government investment and will inevitably put us in a worse position with more debt than ever.

[ThePest179]

In case you haven't noticed, THE DEBT IS THE PROBLEM. LOANING MONEY CREATES DEBT.

 

And if you read what I wrote debt is a shallow way of looking at economics. What about fortune? Assets? GDP?

 

Besides that fact do you know why we have debt? It's so we can build infrastructure, administration, military etc. etc. which then turns into a profit to pay off the loan. Think about it in real life terms, if you couldn't get a student loan how would you attend University? If you couldn't take out a mortgage on your house do you think many would have them?

 

All this fear-mongering and mass media hype that you are perpetrating merely slows down government investment and will inevitably put us in a worse position with more debt than ever.

 

When I say debt, I mean on the national level. This wouldn't bother me so much, but the debt is ovewhelming! Some people can't even afford to pay off their debt, which creates the problem.

[Humin]

And if you read what I wrote debt is a shallow way of looking at economics. What about fortune? Assets? GDP?

 

Besides that fact do you know why we have debt? It's so we can build infrastructure, administration, military etc. etc. which then turns into a profit to pay off the loan. Think about it in real life terms, if you couldn't get a student loan how would you attend University? If you couldn't take out a mortgage on your house do you think many would have them?

 

All this fear-mongering and mass media hype that you are perpetrating merely slows down government investment and will inevitably put us in a worse position with more debt than ever.

So, is the national debt actually debt? Because I don't think debt is supposed to do that...

[Vapymid]

Again, you regard America as an inviceable beast.

 

Not really, only well-protected from strategic invasions by its geographical location.

 

You assume there will be no Chineese navy escort to protect the troop carriers, no aircraft carriers, no anything. And again, WMD play a special role.

 

Chinese Navy at the moment does not have a real blue-ocean capability. They only have 1 conventional carrier, the rest of the navy consists of guided missile destroyers, frigates, support vessels and missile boats. Of those, most are suitable for coastal defence or commercial routes protection in littoral areas. They do have some BM and attack submarines though, but mostly conventional (limited speed and range)...

 

With that, they will not be able to effectively protect a convoy of thousands of container/troop ships needed for the invasion. The escorts will be engaged by and preoccupied with the US Navy, while the troop carriers will be picked off one by one by shore and aircraft-launched anti-ship missiles (and bombs after the Liaoning carrier is taken out).

 

Any WMD use will immediately turn into a nuke slagging match, which China will not win. All that will happen is that both sides will end up with a few major cities in smoking ruins and survivors thinking "how the hell did we get ourselves into this?". Because we are discussing the feasibility of a conventional-type invasion I deliberately did not mention any WMD escalation.

 

Not to mention the possibility of an EMP bomb(s).

 

No such things exist, unless you are talking about high altitude nuclear blasts, which then fall under the general WMD category (see above).

 

In general, there may be many scenarios where the US gets drawn into a regional confrontation with China (because of Taiwan or Japan or something else) and it can grow into a major and costly war, with nukes etc. but the invasion (as in lots of Chinese boys with rifles marching along the Historic Route 66) is very unlikely.

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

It is unlikely, but not for the reasons you think.

 

From the sound of your statements, why is it all so common for authorities to find a random almost-forgotten shipment of slaves from China in cargo containers? You'd think from the stench they'd know there were 40-50 humans on board, but they don't until they're walking past within close proximity. Even ship captains don't know about them.

What makes you think that it's so impossible for China to just send their regular product ships (over 80% of the world's container shipping, and almost 30% of that is in in our west-coast ports at any given time) filled with troops instead of cell phones and children's toys? The 11 day trip allows for 40-50 'slaves' to survive at a 40% margin with nothing at all... Basic rations (or a bunch of MREs) and a couple garbage bags for waste, and you can have 20 fully equipped soldiers per-container, and they will be in near-perfect fighting condition when they arrive in port.

And loading is easy, just send the troops to 'inspect' and 'protect' the containers in the dock warehouses before loading, and the containers are clear for loading troops into. There are many ways to circumvent surveillance, even satellites. I suppose you think with the 'security' at the airports now that it's impossible to get a bomb on a plane, or a personal weapon... I can, and if you want to PM me, (I won't put this information out for the public's eye) I'll tell you how I'd do it. (and have done it in the past many times with a pocket knife)

 

If China put their minds to it, the USA would be unable to stop them from invading short of using WMDs on our own soil... A lot of WMDs.

[ThePest179]

Again, you regard America as an inviceable beast.

 

Not really, only well-protected from strategic invasions by its geographical location.

 

You assume there will be no Chineese navy escort to protect the troop carriers, no aircraft carriers, no anything. And again, WMD play a special role.

 

Chinese Navy at the moment does not have a real blue-ocean capability. They only have 1 conventional carrier, the rest of the navy consists of guided missile destroyers, frigates, support vessels and missile boats. Of those, most are suitable for coastal defence or commercial routes protection in littoral areas. They do have some BM and attack submarines though, but mostly conventional (limited speed and range)...

 

With that, they will not be able to effectively protect a convoy of thousands of container/troop ships needed for the invasion. The escorts will be engaged by and preoccupied with the US Navy, while the troop carriers will be picked off one by one by shore and aircraft-launched anti-ship missiles (and bombs after the Liaoning carrier is taken out).

 

Any WMD use will immediately turn into a nuke slagging match, which China will not win. All that will happen is that both sides will end up with a few major cities in smoking ruins and survivors thinking "how the hell did we get ourselves into this?". Because we are discussing the feasibility of a conventional-type invasion I deliberately did not mention any WMD escalation.

 

Not to mention the possibility of an EMP bomb(s).

 

No such things exist, unless you are talking about high altitude nuclear blasts, which then fall under the general WMD category (see above).

 

In general, there may be many scenarios where the US gets drawn into a regional confrontation with China (because of Taiwan or Japan or something else) and it can grow into a major and costly war, with nukes etc. but the invasion (as in lots of Chinese boys with rifles marching along the Historic Route 66) is very unlikely.

 

Regards

 

Out of all those people to slave away at it, they could probably build a pretty fair sized air craft carrier force. Again though, you have also assumed the US

- would not think the invasion is for another country

- would have Omaha beach type defences ready

- would not be distracted be something else

[ThePest179]

Again, you regard America as an inviceable beast.

 

Not really, only well-protected from strategic invasions by its geographical location.

 

You assume there will be no Chineese navy escort to protect the troop carriers, no aircraft carriers, no anything. And again, WMD play a special role.

 

Chinese Navy at the moment does not have a real blue-ocean capability. They only have 1 conventional carrier, the rest of the navy consists of guided missile destroyers, frigates, support vessels and missile boats. Of those, most are suitable for coastal defence or commercial routes protection in littoral areas. They do have some BM and attack submarines though, but mostly conventional (limited speed and range)...

 

With that, they will not be able to effectively protect a convoy of thousands of container/troop ships needed for the invasion. The escorts will be engaged by and preoccupied with the US Navy, while the troop carriers will be picked off one by one by shore and aircraft-launched anti-ship missiles (and bombs after the Liaoning carrier is taken out).

 

Any WMD use will immediately turn into a nuke slagging match, which China will not win. All that will happen is that both sides will end up with a few major cities in smoking ruins and survivors thinking "how the hell did we get ourselves into this?". Because we are discussing the feasibility of a conventional-type invasion I deliberately did not mention any WMD escalation.

 

Not to mention the possibility of an EMP bomb(s).

 

No such things exist, unless you are talking about high altitude nuclear blasts, which then fall under the general WMD category (see above).

 

In general, there may be many scenarios where the US gets drawn into a regional confrontation with China (because of Taiwan or Japan or something else) and it can grow into a major and costly war, with nukes etc. but the invasion (as in lots of Chinese boys with rifles marching along the Historic Route 66) is very unlikely.

 

Regards

 

Out of all those people to slave away at it, they could probably build a pretty fair sized air craft carrier force. Again though, you have also assumed the US

- would not think the invasion is for another country

- would have Omaha beach type defences ready

- would not be distracted be something else

[Doom Shepherd]

Your suppositions now completely contradict your previous assumptions. If China declared war on the US, it would be completely fucktarded to believe the "invasion fleet" was destined for anywhere else.

 

You cannot build an aircraft carrier with slaves. Exceedingly complex technology requires complex skills, which slaves do not have.

 

Even with Chinese aircraft carriers materializing out of nowhere, the US enjoys immense air superiority over the West coast that cannot be overcome by any realistic number of carriers that could be fielded. We have missiles designed to bring down enemy carriers from over the horizon. We have a vast numerical and technological advantage in attack submarines.

 

Your scenario is completely unrealistic in virtually every aspect.

[Vapymid]

why is it all so common for authorities to find a random almost-forgotten shipment of slaves from China in cargo containers?

 

There is a big difference between a bunch of stowaway immigrants (not slaves - they are trying to get to the US to have a better life/make money to have a better life back home) and loading tens of thousands of troops. Actually, if you look at a container ship with few thousands TEUs onboard you should notice that one of the main problems will be to provide enough ventilation for your boxed up soldiers to not simply suffocate in their containers.

 

The 11 day trip allows for 40-50 'slaves' to survive at a 40% margin with nothing at all...

 

Slaves don't fight well, especially starving ones and when they have lost more than half of their comrades before they even got to the fight.

 

China's COSCO has about 10 weekly ship voyages to the West Coast US, with approximately 20,000 TEUs in total, with 1 or 2 ships per day. They will lose the element of surprise once the first "soldier" is out of the box, therefore, they will have to stay inside until other ships arrive. You cannot send all the ships at once, because a) all movements are scheduled in advance and you will be discovered if you bunch them up, b) the port won't give you the berths to offload.

 

So, you've packed 50 souls per TEU and hope 50% will survive (very optimistic!) and you will have 500 thousand barely alive young men finding themselves in the middle of a container yard miles away from civilisation (look at any picture of a major US container port to see what I'm talking about) having to fight their way out.

 

OK, so some of them will get ashore - what can they achieve, dazed and confused, weak, stinking, without air cover and heavy weapons? I'll tell you what - they will ask for political asylum and surrender

 

- would not think the invasion is for another country

 

What other country?

 

Out of all those people to slave away at it

 

Why do you think that Chinese people are so prepared to "slave" at it? Why do you think that their young not are motivated by the same things as you are (e.g. get rich, live well, have a family etc.)?

 

Regards

[BTGBullseye]

Nevermind... You're determined to ignore all possible threats despite our attempts to describe it to you. I'm just glad you aren't in a position of authority in this government.

[Doom Shepherd]

It would help if your descriptions actually gave the impression that you had sny substantial knowledge of the subject, as opposed to the impression that they currently give, which is that you are getting your information from the lowest-common-denominator hysterics on conspiracy talk radio.

 

I mean, it's completely impossible to take seriously someone who claims we can split the Earth open with nuclear bombs.