Does Life Have Meaning?

[Wheatley]

You are assuming that at least one of the objects is not moving just because you are viewing form one of the object's positions, but if each look like they're moving, then logically each could be moving or only one could be moving. There could even bee a gravity well passing by distorting your view of a stationary object making it look like it's moving, even if it isn't.

 

It may appear to be a fact from your current viewpoint, but if you state a false fact instead of what the fact actually is... ("That object is moving, this object is not" VS. "That object appears to be moving in relation to this object")

 

You've nearly hit the nail on the head here; there simply is no physical difference between something "appearing" to be moving and something that is moving (barring some funky gravitational distortion of light). An objects movement can only be determined relative to something else: in object As frame, object A will always appear to be at rest (providing this frame is inertial) and object B will appear to have a velocity, but in object Bs frame, the opposite will appear to be true. There simply is no way to say something is moving or at rest except by comparing it to another object. In this hypothetical, there is no possible way of determining which one is at rest and which one is moving (or even if they are both moving); they're each moving relative to the other but they also both appear to be at rest in their own frame.

 

It isn't a false fact to state that in the frame of object A, A is at rest and B is moving, as physics will behave in exact accordance with this statement. The same is true for object B. The choice between which one we label to be "at rest" is completely arbitrary, as the concept of movement is only meaningful in relation to something else.

[BTGBullseye]

Physics behaves slightly different with objects in motion than it does with objects at rest... Look it up.

 

"That object is in motion and this one isn't, just because it looks like that one is moving to me while I'm on this object" is a false statement, simply because it uses an ASSUMPTION. "That object is moving relative to this object" isn't right either, it's not a FACT. FACT would be "that object appears to be moving in relation to this object". Any other statement is either incomplete or false.

[Alyxx Thorne]

I'm really curious what all this has to do with the meaning of life though.

[Wheatley]

Physics behaves slightly different with objects in motion than it does with objects at rest... Look it up.

 

I'd appreciate a citation that uniform motion can even be defined without reference to another frame. (edited unified to uniform, silly brain-hand coordination.)

 

"That object is in motion and this one isn't, just because it looks like that one is moving to me while I'm on this object" is a false statement, simply because it uses an ASSUMPTION. "That object is moving relative to this object" isn't right either, it's not a FACT. FACT would be "that object appears to be moving in relation to this object". Any other statement is either incomplete or false.

 

What does "appears to be" mean? If you're speaking about some strange scenario where bent light would create an illusion of an object moving towards you, that's completely outside the scope of this conversation. In terms of a distance between two objects actually changing, there is no privileged reference frame that tells us which objects are "really" moving and which aren't, this is only determined in each individual reference frame. This concept of relativity has been known since Galileo and was extended by Einstein to light and gravity, among other things.

If by "appears to be" you're suggesting that there's some sort of hidden master reference frame no one knows about or can observe, you're posing an empty hypothesis. Relativity is about describing how nature behaves; an accurate description cannot be a false fact simply because that is all a fact is defined as: an accurate description of a phenomenon.

 

I'm really curious what all this has to do with the meaning of life though.

 

I think in the root of this there is some debate about the fundamental nature of the universe containing relativistic properties, which does pose some relevance to philosophies that would exclude a relativistic universe (similar to the discussions about the indeterministic implications of quantum mechanics), but if this is too much of a physics debate, I wouldn't be opposed to splitting off these posts and/or making a new thread.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Guest (see edit history)

[BTGBullseye]

If by "appears to be" you're suggesting that there's some sort of hidden master reference frame no one knows about or can observe, you're posing an empty hypothesis.

No emptier than assumptions applied as facts.

 

Relativity is about describing how nature behaves; an accurate description cannot be a false fact simply because that is all a fact is defined as: an accurate description of a phenomenon.

Yes, but when you inaccurately describe it as "that object moving, and this one not" it is not following even your own definition of the word 'fact'.

 

I'm really curious what all this has to do with the meaning of life though.

 

I think in the root of this there is some debate about the fundamental nature of the universe containing relativistic properties, which does pose some relevance to philosophies that would exclude a relativistic universe (similar to the discussions about the indeterministic implications of quantum mechanics), but if this is too much of a physics debate, I wouldn't be opposed to splitting off these posts and/or making a new thread.

I would be fine with splitting it off too, but I think I've covered my point thoroughly enough.

[Wheatley]

No emptier than assumptions applied as facts.

 

Perhaps you could clarify exactly what assumption you see is being made, as I'm still quite unsure about that. The assumption that an undetectable, inconsequential frame isn't actually privileged over all known frames? That assumption is a part of methodological naturalism, it states that models with predictive capability are better than models with no predictive capability because the latter are unfalsifiable. If that's not what you mean, I'm really not sure.

 

Yes, but when you inaccurately describe it as "that object moving, and this one not" it is not following even your own definition of the word 'fact'.

 

I'm not even sure what you're saying here. If we pose the hypothetical that an actual distance between two objects is actually changing in an inertial frame, there is by definition a uniform motion. If you would dispute that an actual distance being actually changed constitutes actual motion, you're pretty much arguing with the entire field of physics from Galileo to Einstein and basically everyone in between and since.

 

I would be fine with splitting it off too, but I think I've covered my point thoroughly enough.

 

Well, if you're satisfied with the discussion I suppose that works, but your point is still quite unclear to me.

[BTGBullseye]

Not satisfied with the discussion, just done trying to explain reality to someone who is either a troll or is intentionally ignoring what is being said.

[Vapymid]

To be honest, I was following your discussion with Wheatley and I can say that your attempts at explaining your point seemed at best half-hearted, not to say deliberately confusing. That, of course, is your choice. However, for you to now accuse Wheatley of trolling, after your own little game of hiding behind cryptically sounding but totally meaningless one-liners, is crossing the line IMHO. Playing games is one thing, resorting to ad hominem insults, without slightest provocation, is totally different.

 

Regards

[Alyxx Thorne]

I agree. You should really reconsider your formulation before you start accusing people of trolling, BTG.

[Lord Sinister]

Does life have meaning? Who knows. It depends in what way you view it I guess. If you view it in a general all-of-humanity view, the main thing I feel is that we're here, now, and that's how it is and we should simply continue to progress and learn things about the Universe around us over time. Does this constitute a purpose and meaning? To learn and understand? Maybe, but again, who knows. Through the continual march of progress and knowledge acquisition, perhaps we may yet learn the answer to this question. Or maybe it could be a means unto itself; To answer the question we continue to gain knowledge and understanding of the Universe, which in turn you could say provides meaning to our lives.

 

On a person-by-person basis I suppose it depends on your beliefs, what you can do and what you want to do. Perhaps you believe in destiny and your skills lead you down a particular career and life path? If your life has focus or if you have a purpose in life through doing something or accomplishing something, you probably feel your life has meaning, which seems like common sense to me. It means that to you your life feels like it has value, it has a purpose, and thus it has meaning, at least to you.

[onion]

The way I see it is that life is one big chance think about it if a different sperm had reached the egg first you'd have been a different person if your dad had chosen to not go to the party where he met you mum you would not excist. That's just last generation of your family. Just trying to comprehend the odds of you been born is amazing. That's ignoring the fact that are species evolved in the first place then the chance of our planet existing where it does the odds are so small they may as well be nothing. Life's has no meaning there is no ultimate plan we are the result of a random universe that is amazingly beautiful and chaotic.

Thank you for taking the time to read my long pointless view have a wonderful life and remember be happy you've only got a short time on this earth don't waste it wondering why and just live.

[Humin]

My parents met in a bar. My mother was a bartender.

[Vapymid]

The way I see it is that life is one big chance think about it if a different sperm had reached the egg first you'd have been a different person if your dad had chosen to not go to the party where he met you mum you would not excist. That's just last generation of your family. Just trying to comprehend the odds of you been born is amazing.

 

That in its own right does not invalidate the possibility of some higher meaning to life. Regardless of whether or not there is such a meaning, it is very difficult to deny that there clearly is a vector for matter self-organisation (aka evolution). Statistically, it does not matter whether it's you or another individual has been born at any particular moment, however, the history of the circumstances preceding the birth dictates that certain number of individuals of certain types will be born. And that process is not Markovian and is not random, but selective.

 

That's ignoring the fact that are species evolved in the first place then the chance of our planet existing where it does the odds are so small they may as well be nothing.

 

On the contrary, even with the primitive tools we have now there already have been hundreds of planets discovered in other star systems, some of them in the habitable zone. Everything points to there being millions of Earth-like planets in just our one galaxy.

 

Life's has no meaning there is no ultimate plan we are the result of a random universe that is amazingly beautiful and chaotic.

 

Maybe there isn't an ultimate plan but the Universe is anything but random. Practically everything that may seem random at certain scale actually contains a signal, direction, bias. It certainly looks like the fundamental laws of this Universe combine in such a way as to drive its development along a certain path. In that sense the meaning of each individual life is to sense the direction of that path and continue along to the best of its abilities.

 

One may argue that the fundamental laws are themselves formed randomly. That may well be the case (there may have been an infinite number of universes with all kinds of combinations of fundamental laws and constants and most could not produce life bur our Universe could and so that's why we are here), but there may be an equal argument that such combination of laws is the result of some trans-universal evolution (when some universes fare better than others and so their "off-spring" universes are gradually selected for something - life, efficiency?), or there may have been that one uber-being who has carefully set the laws before pressing the button and producing the Big Bang - who knows? We don't.

 

Regards

[Vapymid]

Everything points to there being millions of Earth-like planets in just our one galaxy.

 

I stand corrected: more like 17 billion...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20942440

 

Regards

[Pinkie Pie]

Funny how we keep finding planets that are almost Earth-like, then.

[BTGBullseye]

Funny how we keep finding planets that are almost Earth-like, then.

And that all signs point to them being unable to support human life without significant terraforming.

[Wheatley]

I remember several potential life-supporting planets being discussed in the field of astronomy; last time I checked known candidates do exist.

 

Regardless, we can see a miniscule fraction of the planets in this galaxy, let alone the universe. All observations indicate our planet is representative of a very large portion of planets. The chance of being alone in the universe is so low, it would be more astounding if we were alone.

[thebeelzebub]

Sure life has a meaning, any meaning yo give to it. In buddhism if you live a perfect life, you reach nirvana, Nietzsche called his ideal The Superman. I believe that if you live standing up to your own ideals and fighting those who are up against them, you've done more than enough. We may not choose how we are born or how we are raised, but we have the choise to fight for what we believe in and die for it. And that should be all the meaning you need in your life.

[Alyxx Thorne]

Personally I believe that God has given a purpose and meaning to all of us and that it's just up to us to find it.

[Woah_G!]

On being immortal,

Man, I wish I'd never found that goddamn lamp. Stupid fucking genie. I just had to blurt it out, didn't I? "I wish I were immortal!" Half the time they can't even make you immortal, but Sim Allah Bim of the Seven Winds just snapped his fingers and said "It is done." Damn, was I stoked. I don't even remember what my other two wishes were. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference now.

 

Oh, it was awesome for a while. I was all jumping off buildings and shit, getting shot and electrocuted, eating glass, the whole extreme sports gambit... I did it all. Nothing could kill me! Then all my friends and family started dying. That really sucked for a while. I made new friends, but they died, too. After six or seven times through with that, I figured friends weren't really worth it. I lived like a fucking hermit. Pfft... how long did that last? Two, three thousand years? Four, tops. Yeah, I started talking to people again. Made new friends. They died, too, but I was over it by then.

 

Mankind did some really amazing shit over the next couple hundred million years. That was awesome to see too, at first. I went to all sorts of planets, watched them move stars and build dyson spheres, they even cured themselves of all known disease and started living longer. It was soooo nice to have some friends that didn't just die after a hundred years or so.

 

But then they started evolving. People were turning into pure energy left and right. I couldn't do awesome shit like that, stuck in my immortal body. So I made my way back to Earth to see how they were doing there, but it turned out to be long since abandoned. So I was stranded on this worthless rock I'd seen a million times over with nothing to do. Yeah, the planet had changed quite a bit since I'd last been there, but I still wasn't occupied for more than a million years or so. After that it was boring as hell. I remember once I just sat on the edge of a cliff and waited for whatever continent I was on to drift into another one. Jeez.

 

But it seemed to keep getting hotter. Now, my immortal ass can stand any temperature you could throw at it, but that doesn't mean I wasn't uncomfortable. Shit, it was hotter than two rats fucking in a wool sock. Pretty soon, the oceans were boiling. Now that is a sight to see. I even went swimming in it. Real smart, you fucking genius. I lost track of time, and before I knew it, the oceans were fucking gone and I was sitting at the bottom. Everywhere I went trying to get back up, BAM! continental shelf. Took me a thousand years to find a way back up. The whole thing was desert by that time anyway.

 

Then there was this galaxy that was fucking huge in the sky. It got so big, it took up the whole damn sky. After a while, you couldn't tell its stars from the normal ones. Then all the stars, new and old, started moving around in all these weird patterns. It was some show, let me tell you. Most interesting thing I'd seen in a while. But just as it was getting good, the goddamn sun exploded.

 

Now, the sun exploding itself was an even cooler sight than all those extra stars. It got really damn big. Hotter than hell, but worth it. And then BANG! Fucker started exploding. It kept going off for probably a billion years. It was awesome at first, but, shit... give it enough time and anything is boring. By the time it was done it was like night all the time and the sun wasn't all that much brighter than the other stars in the sky. Not to mention that it was cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey now.

 

So I waited. And waited. I memorized the stars and came up with names for all of them. And I waited. It was so fucking cold, I didn't move around that much. I couldn't even tell you how long it was, cause it was too damn cold to think. Shit, how I waited.

 

But then the damnedest thing happened. There was this huge, deafening roar. The sky was on fire. It started getting hot again. The wind got stronger and stronger until I was flying. Then came the loudest fucking sound I've ever heard in my life, and I found myself flying up and away from the Earth itself. When I finally got far enough away, I figured it out. Must have been an asteroid or something. Big fucker, though, there was a sizeable chunk of planet missing; a lot of it was still glowing red hot.

 

Now let me tell you, I thought it was cold on solid ground with no sun, but that was nothing. Empty space is fucking cold. That and not being able to breath... damn, that was an unpleasant time. I drifted away from what was left of the solar system. After I while I could see the giant cloud of shit left over from when the sun exploded. But then I just kept going. Man, it was a long time. Trillions of years, probably.

 

I landed on planets or even in stars from time to time. If I was on a planet, I was never there more than a billion years or so before another fucking asteroid came and threw me off of it. When I landed in stars (hotter than fuck), I just had to wait until it exploded and sent me off in some other direction. It really sucked.

 

But eventually I drifted out of the galaxy altogether. Of course it was nothing like that big pinwheel they told us it was in junior high. Just a big irregular blob. Just drifting and drifting, still couldn't breath. I passed other galaxies. Even from where I was, I could see stars exploding in the close ones. That was cool for a while. But I guess they were all running out of stars or something, the galaxies kept getting dimmer.

 

About the time the last galaxies were going out, I started to feel like I was going faster. A definite sensation of acceleration. I started spinning around. I don't know around what, but I could tell I was spinning from the few galaxies left out. I started to feel like I was stretching out, too. And then I couldn't see anything at all. Not too long after that I just felt crushed and stopped moving. Just saying that doesn't do it justice. I couldn't even move myself anymore. I felt like someone had crammed me inside a fucking shoebox or something.

 

This went on for a long fucking time. And I just kept feeling smaller and smaller and smaller. When suddenly I was free. Well, I wasn't being crushed anymore. But I still couldn't move and still felt tiny as fuck. And I still couldn't see anything.

 

But that's where it ended. Nothing has happened since then. Nothing. And that was a really fucking long time ago. I've already rethought every thought I ever had a googol times. That's not even an exaggeration, I counted. Yeah, I counted to a googol. That's how long I've been out here.

 

Man, this fucking sucks. Immortality blows.