Communism

[ProHypster]

Never mind, I thought you went for a debate there.

You can confuse opinions and debates sometimes.

And the quote can have very many meanings actually was my point, I know what your grandfather probably meant.

 

Anyways I think Dalipose gets what Communism is by now.. I think the most basic way to think of it is that communism = live through the community, not individualism. A system where the community basically will share both your failures and glory and so you almost become one with the community...

Edited October 19, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[Michael Archer]

Laissez-Faire capitalism would end you up in essentially the same situation as communism.

 

How so? A capitalist government is strictly bound by a constitution and the majority has very limited power.

[Doom Shepherd]

Laissez-Faire capitalism would end you up in essentially the same situation as communism.

 

How so? A capitalist government is strictly bound by a constitution and the majority has very limited power.

 

They have lawyers.

 

Now, much as I love Capitalism, Lawyers are too often misused by those in power to weasel their way AROUND the laws (and the constitution and the limited power of the majority) and into places they really shouldn't be. Left unrestrained, they can, subtly and entirely legally, wreck the system. And that's WITH regulation.

 

I've seen what one uncontrolled Rules Lawyer can do to a friendly game of D&D. What millions of them could do to a national economy... *shudder*

[ProHypster]

Isn't that what happened to cities such as Chicago, Detroit and Las Vegas (Not sure if Las Vegas is a different issue)?

The Mafia got control of the lawyers in these cities.

[Michael Archer]

Doom Shepard, that's only possible if the constitution is not properly implemented. It's a complex, legal matter; I'm only talking about the philosophy and moral justification for capitalism.

 

But as a start, maybe lawyers should help write the constitution then?

 

If they ruined D&D, I'd HATE to see what they'd do to Trivial Pursuit; even I'm difficult to play Trivial Pursuit with.

[Ross Scott]

Communism is a fantastic prospect, but humans are too stupid to work together and abandon most of their personal desires. I COULD be volunteering my time at a soup kitchen instead of playing video games when I get home from school, but frankly, I really don't want to. I might prefer it someday, but it's impossible for everyone to willingly self-sacrifice.

 

I'm more of an anarchist, and anarchy is the true product of any perfect communism, maybe any government for that matter. Mutually assured destruction is the best way to keep people in check. For example, in today's society (in the USA, at least), raping a girl will get you sent to jail. But, in an anarchist environment, raping a girl will get your head blown off by her daddy's shotgun. Which was more effective at keeping you from raping that girl? Exactly. Anarchy is humanity in its perfect environment.

 

Hey, you can take the Craig Mengel challenge! Craig (voice of Dave on CP) is a political science major, working towards his Master's degree, and he challenges any anarchists out there to play the computer game STALKER then afterwards still say you support anarchy. While it does have fictional things like mutants and anomalies, he considers it a great anarchy simulator.

[Alyxx Thorne]

I have more faith in a social democracy, that is a slight mix between democracy and communism, than communism by itself. In Norway we have some government-funded institutions, mostly police, firemen and hospitals, and a welfare system too, though we remain democratic as we're allowed to vote on which political party we want to be in charge.

[Obsidian]

Oddly enough, as appealing as the cover page for communism looks toward a utilitarian such as myself, I know that upon reading a chapter or two that the idea falls apart. The system in its purist forms lacks the ability to motivate the citizens whom live under it to work harder so that they may improve the world around them. For that, I hate to say it, they would need some kind of reward system. Very few people will work toward the betterment of humanity as a whole without a reward greater than that "warm, fuzzy feeling" they might get. If a government can't encourage its people to work to better their society, then I would call that a failing government.

 

Anarchy is humanity in its perfect environment.

 

Except that Anarchy isn't sustainable for a long period of time worth mentioning. It's a transitional state/period between one government and the next, at best.

 

I have more faith in a social democracy, that is a slight mix between democracy and communism, than communism by itself. In Norway we have some government-funded institutions, mostly police, firemen and hospitals, and a welfare system too, though we remain democratic as we're allowed to vote on which political party we want to be in charge.

 

I personally really like Norway's system. Then again, that might be because I really dislike the systems of my country.

[Alyxx Thorne]

Well we are one of the wealthiest countries in the world and we have a very high living standard. Clearly we did something right.

[ProHypster]

I agree, Norway is a great country to live in right now.

However improvements I would suggest are less reliance on oil and gas and more independence from USA/NATO (So you are not forced to fight for them).

Really the first point being the crucial one. Finland has Nokia and Sweden has Ikea among other things, Norway needs a major company on it's own that is not oil or gas distributing.

 

To underline the importance:

In 2011, 28% of state revenues were generated from the petroleum industry

 

A key factor is also the small population of Norway.

 

You are really a very lucky country in a way.

[Alyxx Thorne]

I agree about that. And I've always felt lucky to be born here.

[Vapymid]

Clearly we did something right.

 

Well, having substantial oil and gas reserves surely must have contributed to that, isn't that so?

 

Regards

[Alyxx Thorne]

Of course, it's contributed a great deal to our wealth. Makes me wonder what other resources we'll focus on when those are depleted.

[ProHypster]

Alyxx, after your raw resources run out there is only one solution........TRANSITION TO COMMUNISM!

 

(On a serious side note, communism should never be transitioned unto from a weak state as history has shown, only through the most developed state can communism be transitioned to, and believe me, the most fake communism will appear when your country is at it's weakest, take greece for example)

 

So yes, communism shouldn't be a last straw, it should be the last transition of a socialist government when everybody or democratically most agree that they are ready.

[Doom Shepherd]

Of course, it's contributed a great deal to our wealth. Makes me wonder what other resources we'll focus on when those are depleted.

 

Move to Titan, largest moon of Saturn. There are abundant hydrocarbons (huge lakes of it!), and at -270, it's only slightly colder than Norway.

 

Seriously, the only way Communism can really work with humans (instead of androids) is if we first eliminate the scarcity economy. The only way that will happen is if we first exploit the f*** out of space. Only when recources are limitless and freely available will the Unwritten Law of Economics (A thing is worth what you can find some fool willing to pay for it) no longer apply. Then, all the value that will remain is the actual value of the worker's time in designing something new in the first place.

 

When anybody can manufacture anything, we won't sell labor or objects anymore, then. All we'll be selling is the design, and the skill set.

[ProHypster]

When robots can manufacture anything, we won't sell labor or objects anymore, then. All we'll be selling is the design, and the skill set.

[Doom Shepherd]

When robots can manufacture anything, we won't sell labor or objects anymore, then. All we'll be selling is the design, and the skill set.

 

Make robots that smart, and they're likely to decide that your irrational, emotional butt is more trouble than its worth. Or that your body would better serve the community (of robots) broken down into a nice, lubricating oil.

[ProHypster]

When robots can manufacture anything, we won't sell labor or objects anymore, then. All we'll be selling is the design, and the skill set.

 

Make robots that smart, and they're likely to decide that your irrational, emotional butt is more trouble than its worth. Or that your body would better serve the community (of robots) broken down into a nice, lubricating oil.

Why does a robot who can manufacture have to be that smart? BMW I believe was recently the first company to open a factory completely operated by robots that make cars.

[Doom Shepherd]

Why does a robot who can manufacture have to be that smart? BMW I believe was recently the first company to open a factory completely operated by robots that make cars.

 

If the robots aren't smart enough, then you'll still have to have humans in the equation, just as BMW does. To go as completly over to robots as you propose, you have to have robots that are capable of advanced decision-making and planning. They have to know to STOP manufacturing cars when there is a national surplus or when other conditions change. They have to design new cars (and new robots to build the new designs), continuously updating them to match changing factors, like the government deciding that all cars must be 20% more fuel-efficient.)

[ProHypster]

We can make equations for seperate tasks, no robot needs to know everything. One robot who only knows how to decide on marketing and decision making as you said based on the equation for perfect or even good marketing and decision making we would give it. The robots will still only do things, we will only learn and control things with buttons, whoever is interested for the fun, or even for the pride and for required community service if noone is willing.

 

What you are saying can only happen if we insert into the robot an equation of learning like us. But of course we won't do that becase that would be stupid, dangerous and immoral and also incredibly difficult.

I say we are nearing the age of robots controlling almost every job of "doing", well, if we do get to that and not die of something stupid beforehand.

 

As you said, the only jobs in this scenario will be button pushing for shutdown in case of an emergency, design, invention & science, art.