Video encoding experiment

[McFirson]

Though it`s said that it`s not necessary to reply if there was no problems with video playing, I`ll reply anyway.

 

All 4 formats (played .avi first, then .mkv, .mp4, .wmv) didn`t stutter at all, and I was especially focused at the waterfall part and the motorway, because it`s were I was expecting stutter to occur.

 

I was using MPC-HC, with K-Lite Mega Codec Pack (not the latest one, i just noticed I updated it last in June of 2010, v6.0.4 ), Win 7 32, in fullscreen, on 21.5" TFT monitor, natural resolution 1920x1080(watched two times: 1.with background programs, 2.after restart).

 

I don`t hate you, so option 4 is ruled out , I`m somewhat allergic to animals fur, so forget about option 3.

 

I vote for .m...

(I`m joking, I`ll change this, after I`m done with (little more) experimenting)

Edited October 6, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[FeepingCreature]

I wanted to vote MKV but I can program.

 

So I voted Dog.

[13ack.Stab]

I wanted to vote MKV but I can program.

 

So I voted Dog.

 

You... wait, what?

 

You don't need to know how to code anything to be able to use MKVs.

[Deathbob]

I am really surprised by the variations in playback.

 

For me best to worst:

 

AVI, MKV, M4V, WMV

 

The AVI didn't stutter

MKV stuttered slightly

MP4 stuttered quite a bit

WMV didn't handle full screen motion well

 

AMD 64 X2 3.2Ghz

VLC 1.1.11

Nvidia GTS 250

 

There are better MKV players out there. For the file size gain I would vote for MKV even though AVI did better in my case.

[Vapymid]

If AVI is not an option anymore then I suggest to go for Matroska (MKV).

 

It is the most advanced container and is open source as well.

 

Those who need MP4 can always download MKV and remux it.

 

Regards

[Ross Scott]

@Daft

 

VLC is a media player, while CCCP and K-Lite are codec packages.

 

VLC has terrible internal codecs, so you should generally avoid it like the plague - rather, you should install any respectable codec pack (CCCP, K-Lite, and CoreAVC are the primary contenders) and use MPC-HC to play videos. Alternatively, MplayerX works pretty well on the Mac platform.

 

That said, I voted for the .mkv container.

 

Ross, I strongly recommend ensuring that you're using a High AVC Profile at level 4.1 in your x264 settings for maximum compatibility.

 

Thanks for all of your hard work!

The reality is MANY people will be using VLC player, so I tested it with VLC Player and MPC-HC with the Matroska Splitter. I tried to make this as compatible as possible using the "High Profile" setting, I found that almost ANY deviation from this resulted in minor errors in VLC Player. I was using Handbrake to do the encoding, but I'm still new to x264 encoding. Thus, I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by the level 4.1. By all means recommend a better encoder / settings I can test out. Also if I have to use a commandline encoder, it would be highly preferable for me to have some sort of frontend.

 

Ross, I know it's funny and tempting to post stupid options in the poll--but all it does is take away votes from legitimate options and skews the results.

I don't think so, the results show that the majority of people here don't seem to have a preference as to how it's released. If 70% of people voted for "none of the above", I'd stop considering these formats and figure out what people wanted. People seem divided or to not care about this, so I'm trying to find an option that's high quality and at least semi-compatible with a lot of things.

[13ack.Stab]

Ross, thank you for your response.

 

I highly recommend grabbing a copy of Avisynth (though I'm assuming that you already have this installed, so I won't elaborate), and using MeGUI as a frontend - it's pretty easy to use, has loads of functionality, and is very versatile.

 

If you have any questions regarding setting it up or getting it configured initially, shoot me a PM and I'd be very glad to lend a hand.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[McFirson]

The reality is MANY people will be using VLC player, so I tested it with VLC Player and MPC-HC with the Matroska Splitter. I tried to make this as compatible as possible using the "High Profile" setting, I found that almost ANY deviation from this resulted in minor errors in VLC Player.

Il est incompréhensible!!!(courtesy of Google translate)

 

I have VLC player on my computer installed, but I don`t use it because I mainly use MPC, which does the job perfectly for me and which I upgrade regularly from main site.

After I looked at what people posted here, I played all 4 videos in VLC.

 

(look at the beginning of reply)

The difference couldn`t be more puzzling!

Avi format: Stuttered the least, at the waterfall part.

Mkv format: Stutter is present in almost every scene.

Mp4 format: There is stutter at waterfall part and in scene Dave walking to Mike, but that`s all.

Wmv format: Almost as good as Avi.

 

According to this, my vote goes to mp4 of the two given choices. But, because I mainly use MPC, which came with K-Lite Mega Codec Pack, stuttering I experience in VLC may be just because I don`t have some codecs that VLC needs to work properly.

 

Results I had with MPC still stand firmly: No stuttering at all.

 

I hope this is good benchmark-information for you.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Guest (see edit history)

[SomeGUY]

Ok so I tried them in Windows XP 32 bit with vlc player and got some stutters when as they opened for a sec or 2 but that's it.

[FluffyMuffin]

I really don't see what you're trying to accomplish from this. This container format war has gone on indefinitely and will never stop because people are always greedy to have free things presented to them in a way such that it will work immediately and conveniently on whatever setup they're using.

 

AVI is out of the question unless you intend to release an SD xvid copy alongside the HD x264 release. The difference between MKV and MP4 is generally irrelevant as long as the avc track is identical. In general mkv is more stable and a lot more flexible/easier to work with. It would be a much better format to work with if you intend to incorporate all those subtitles tracks on your website into the video files themselves eventually. So all these people stating that mp4 is "less stuttery" or looks better than mkv are just frauds with bias for getting a format that works on their xbox/ps3/whatever incompetent device that doesn't support mkv (unless handbrake fucked up somewhere, which isn't totally out of the question). The choice comes down to if you want the most compatibility in exchange for a slightly less versatile and stable container, or vice versa. In the end if your releases are simple enough (single audio and video track and no subs) then mp4 is probably the better choice for your wider audience. Perhaps try a more vague poll that offers less of an option to make a biased decision on the voter's end, like what device they use for playback, to be able to make a better choice for yourself.

 

Your issue here, Ross Scott, is not the video container but the x264 settings. Firstly, just drop handbrake. In the long run it'll cause you more problems than it'll simplify (mainly because it oversimplifies). If you used what it considered to be the "High Profile" setting, then you were duped.

 

MediaInfo says the following about your sample:

cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=300 / keyint_min=30 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=50 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=3 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

I could go on in length about how this is simply suboptimal at best, but it has been awhile since I've been actively encoding things and I really am too rusty to be giving specific advice off the top of my head (I haven't read the x264 changelog for over a year). Considering all the animation work you do, I'm sure you have something along the lines of an i7 so you can definitely be aiming for something of higher quality. If you're uncomfortable around the cli, that's fine, though x264 officially only comes in this flavor. My advice would be the same as the poster above recommended, try megui. For the most part, it's the best frontend available. Its presets will probably be better than handbrakes out of the box, but I still strongly recommend that you config your own profile for it. The settings of x264 can seem pretty confusing at first, but after a few test encodes and some light reading, I'm sure you'll figure it out. That wiki is basically an expansion of the helpful tooltips in megui's x264 config menu.

 

Good luck, I look forward to when fm38 is downloadable, actually more for the audio than the video (youtube <_<).

[_I_I_M_I_I_]

I don't even care what the format is. i'll just watch it on youtube.

[thebeelzebub]

I've tried all on VCL, WMP, BSplayer and XBOX360 and there was no difference really. I would suggest MKV, it has the best quality/space requirement.

[Obsidian]

Tried them all with VLC, like most of the replied. I downloaded each file, and played them each twice in VLC. I dunno why, but VLC doesn't seem to repeat stutters on a second play for me...

 

Anyway, here are the results I found:

 

MP4 1st: No stuttering

MP4 2nd: Again, no stuttering

 

MKV 1st: some stuttering, but not enough to irritate.

MKV 2nd: less stuttering, but still a few stutters here and there, mostly on scenes with a moving camera.

 

AVI: more stuttering than mkv, a little irritating.

AVI: No change.

 

WMV: Stutters less than AVI but more than MKV.

WMV: less stuttering, roughly the same as MKV 1st.

 

I voted for MP4 in the poll. It's a format that a lot of devices are already friendly with, such as Apple mobile devices, set-top boxes, PS3, Xbox360 (assuming the video is dumbed down so it can play it), et cetera. The file sizes are smaller, which I think would benefit both users and the site. Plus, as mentioned for the favor of MKV, you can also add multiple audio tracks and subtitle tracks to mp4/m4v files as well. It's all in the mux, as they say

 

Also, it's easier for users to mux the streams of an .m4v file to an .mkv container if they so desire. Muxing .mkv streams into an .m4v file, on the other hand, is a bit more painful, but still doable.

 

That being said, I'd be able to deal with MKV's all the same, since I can always remux the streams into the m4v container for personal use.

[bevix]

This sort of discussion is really waaaay beyond my computer skills, so I'm likely pretty representative of a more typical user ("Why won't that damn dog quit barking!?!") of this site.

 

Having said that, I was able to :

Google, find, and easily download the VLC player

Install it such that it only defaulted to open MKV files (In case it was a dogpile of a piece of software, I didn't want it trying to open all the video file formats)

Download the MKV file and play it, no problem. It ran w/o any stuttering or pixelation issues that I could see.

 

I run Windows 7 Professional and have a pretty good machine, hardware-wise.

[fman23]

My computer: Ubuntu 10.04, Totem player, GStreamer framework (ugly and bad plugin sets are installed [these contain the proprietary codecs])

 

MKV: Minimal problems just a little blurry in fullscreen during waterfall scene

MP4: Slightly more problems, just lines pixelizing sometimes near top of the screen in fullscreen

 

I didnt download the other two because they were too large (and took too long) for me.

My vote goes for MKV so you can add subtitles to it directly.

[Johnny2Toes]

Tested the videos on my work machine, will try to test on my home machine (if I can remember to do so):

 

Dell Studio XPS

Windows Vista Business 64-bit SP2

Intel Core i7 920

6.0GB Triple-Channel DDR3 6.0GB Triple-Channel DDR3

Radeon HD 3400 Series

 

Tested with VLC and Media Player

 

Overall the MKV and AVI worked best in VLC (no discernible difference, wouldn't play in media player (surprise!))

Next best was MP4 in VLC and Media Player

WMV would only play in Media player and seemed to stutter the most

 

That was my experience anyway.

[Steve the Pocket]

From the sound of it, there's no appreciable difference in features between MP4 and MKV unless you're planning to use special features like captions or alternate audio tracks, which I assume you aren't. It's mostly used by people who want to make rips of DVDs and Blu-Ray discs and keep all the features intact. Meanwhile, MP4 is supported by default on every player in existence nowadays, whereas MKV only works in VLC, Media Player Classic, and some other, even more obscure stuff that only works on computers and Android.

 

I can't help but think the descriptions in the poll may have skewed the vote a bit, since there was no mention of MP4's much wider support and everyone on the Internet hates Apple. Plus, that bit about MKV being "open source" is a moot point since H.265 itself is neither open source nor patentless. If this were a debate between MPEG and, say, OGG or WebM, that would be another matter.

 

Those who need MP4 can always download MKV and remux it.

Those who need MP4 are the ones least likely to have the slightest clue what "remuxing" even is, much less how to do it. The goal here is accessibility; that's why he's planning on discontinuing the WMV copies in the first place.

[13ack.Stab]

whereas MKV only works in VLC, Media Player Classic, and some other, even more obscure stuff that only works on computers and Android.

 

This isn't true at all. MKVs play just fine with most media players, as well as on linux boxes (i.e. ReadyNAS), streaming-based players (i.e. the Roku), hardware media boxes, etc.

 

Also:

 

H.265

 

[FluffyMuffin]

H.265

 

Yup, that pretty much sums up his argument right there.

[Delta 757]

I'm pretty new to all of this video format stuff, but hopefully I can still be helpful.

 

Computer Specs:

Dell Inspiron 1420 laptop

Intel Core 2 Duo: 2.00GHz speed

Windows Vista Home Premium SP2

2.00GB of RAM

NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS (integrated into the system board)

 

I have K-Lite Standard installed. I tried running the formats in MPC-HC and Windows Media Player. If I did have stuttering, it usually wasn't at any place in the video specifically.

 

MPC-HC:

.AVI was the best, no noticeable stuttering.

.WMV was a very close second. Occasional stuttering around the waterfall and expressway scenes

.MKV was third, with major stuttering throughout. It did not matter what the scene was.

.MP4 was by far the worst. Stuttering that was worse than with .MKV throughout the entire thing.

 

Surprisingly, Windows Media Player played everything flawlessly, go figure. From this, I would have to choose .AVI, but since that's not on the poll, I would go with .MKV.

 

That is all.